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Deciding Which To Buy


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I am trying to deciding which type saiga to buy, either a saiga or a vepr? The questions I have are;

1) Is the vepr worth the extra money required?

2) Is the vepr gas system better than the saiga?

3) Is the Last Shot Bolt Open worth having?

4) Can the vepr be hip fired? I read a thread were someone stated they had a FTE because the weapon was not shouldered good.

5) Is having a chrome lined barrel and action that much better?

6) Is the vepr receiver steel thicker than a saiga's? I heard it was.

7) Are there enough mags available for the vepr at this time?

 

If someone could help me with some of the questions I have it would be a tremendous help for me deciding which way to go on my purchase.

 

Thanks,

Squared

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1) Yes. You can not get even close to the value in a Saiga that you do with a VEPR. A basic converted Saiga with a basic conversion is around $800. add the vaslue of a mag well, hinged top cover, etc... and you are around $14-1500

 

2) Apples and oranges. The saiga's are "you get what you get" withwhat they will function shooting. Some will run bird shot out the box and others require ridiculous amounts of mods to run bird shot. Most everyone has said their VEPR ran flawless out of the box.

 

3) YES!!!!! When functioning a LRBHO is great to have on a magazine fed firearm. If hicap magwell drums come out the tension between the 20th round and the bolt bottom is intense so having that problem removed is invaluable.

 

4)Yes. If you imp wrist a Saiga or VEPR either will nalfunction, as will almost any semiauto magazine fed weapon. A semi-auto uses the energy to chamber a round and if you do not exert enough force against it to allow it to do this is when failures occur.

 

5) Saiga's also have chrome lined barrels. The difference is the chrome lined gas area. Makes maintenance easier and rust a non-issue. So I would answer that anything that helps the longevity of a thousand dollar items is a yes.

 

6) Yes. It is built on a RPK reciever which is thicker than the stamper Saiga reciever.

 

7) There are now. SGM just posted they will be shipping their 10 adn 21 round hi-cap mags that function with the LRBHO out next week. So every capacity of mazgazine available for the Saiga minus the drums are available now. The other cool thing about SGM is you can cut their magazines down to whatever capacity you want. Or if it gets damaged on a bottom corner and it interferes with the spring somehow it isnt trash. You just cut it to the next rib and slide the floor plate in and it is useable again.

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To elaborate on #4 further- Search for malfunctions with the Springfield XD(s) .45 pistol that just released recently. There are a lot of issues with FTE because people do not properly hold the weapon and are "limp wristing" it. I have an XD(s) and shoot it fine. My wife shoots it and it FTE a ton because she is small with weak little wrists.

 

If this is your first foray into the Saiga semi-auto game, I would base your decision on what you will do with it. If you like to modify your gun and customize it to "YOU" then the Saiga is the way to go. If you like to leave things alone and are satisfied with minimal available options on the market the VEPR is a better choice. Think of it as a Honda civic and a Range Rover. The Range Rover is classic and beautiful with no real modifications, but there are also not a lot of options. A honda civic stock is fugly, but there are 12 million options that you can do to it.

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Totally worth it to me. The Saigas are great too if you have the money to spend. But honestly I dont want to put all the extra into it myself. I would love to have a custom saiga. But If Im going to get one they way I want it, its going to cost close to 2k or more. I settled on the VEPR because its more in my price range for the time being. .....and I cant stop buying guns, ammo, and accessories long enough to save the money I need for a custom saiga lol.

 

The vepr requires none of that extra cash dump to get it functioning all the different kinds of ammo like the saigas. The last round bolt hold open is a huge plus too. There has been some small issues with the VEPRs if you look around, but nothing compared to the saigas imo. Canted rails being the most common, but I believe is has been proven they will fix that under warranty.

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Think of it this way. Imagine placing the stock of any semi auto gun against a wall and pulling the trigger. This would ideally allow full energy transfer through the gas system, into the carrier, which allows extraction of the spent casing, and chambering of the new round. Now think of the same scenario but instead of using a wall you use a pillow. When the energy moving back hits the pillow it dissapates instead of returning and this is the same as the limp wrist effect. As long as proper energy is allowed to do its job any semi-auto anything can be hip-fired.

 

The pistol grip action on the Saiga/VEPR allow a much better purchase to allow proper energy transfer where something like a mossberg 930 doesnt have that advantage, which is why they allow a much better hip fire ability than other semi-autos.

 

I was a cop for a few years and I always recommend against a shotgun for home defense, and especially one that isnt 100% reliable like a semi-auto. If you must I would order the Mossberg 500 model with the insight weapon light foreend already on it. Most home defense situations occur at night, so the light is useful in blinding your potential aggressor, it is a pump with a history of reliability, and the sound of racking a shell is considered by many a deterent. It runs arounf $450 for an 8 rounder with the light. It has a 20" barrel so it could be used for birds if you really wanted.

 

Think of this when it comes to home defense. A shotgun with bird shot for home defense is crap. When it comes to buck shot, with 00, you are shooting nine 32 caliber pellets out that you cannot control and theyre moving in a small area with a ton of force. Say 5 of the 9 hit, you still have 4 stray .32 pellets flying through your house. Equate this to would you close your eyes and empty a pistol at someone in th ehope that all the bullets hit? I assume we do not have to discuss shooting someone with a 1 1/8th ounce stug at 15ft. and the sheer mess that would make. Also, theyre is still a responsibility to home defense firearms to not try to blow the person completely up.

 

A .45 pistol with frangible ammo is the perfect home defesne. It is a proven man stopper, the ammo will not penetrate several walls or into your neighbors house if you miss, and anyone at any age can be taught to shoot a pistol.

 

For the $1000 price tag for a VEPR you can get a nice .45 pistol, and a pump shotgun that will be a more reliable front line shotgun,

 

Just my .02 cents

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No weapon was ment to be "hip" fired, nor is there any reason to other than pure amusement.

 

 

Yes, chrome lined barrels are better.

 

 

yes, the vepr receiver is thicker than the Saiga 12. But CSS and other vendors have already started stocking VEPR specific stocks and parts.

 

Yes, there are mags for the VEPR 12s. SGM just said a few days ago they would start shipping out products. You should see vendors stocking them in the next week or two.

 

 

 

and the sound of racking a shell is considered by many a deterent.

 

 

Dude, please dont. nonono.gif

Edited by Chevyman097
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I didnt say by me, I repeated the inane public perception. I prefer stealth until I want you to know that I am present so you cant wait for me to walk in the room. Making a loud sound may make someone who is already nervous, and possibly under the influence, go to extreme measures to ensure self preservation.

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If you can't reach around a corner and fire your "combat shotgun" one handed to clear the way, there's something wrong there IMHO and one should get to tuning.

 

Between the S-12 & V-12 it can go either way. If you just want to be able to put a shit-ton of lead down range, you're mechanically inclined, and a good craftsman, you can have a drummed up converted S-12 running like a raped ape for a ballpark of $800.00 if you do everything yourself. I'm talkin' hella on the cheap, like using a takeoff buttstock, search out a $20.00 G-2, reuse the TG etc...

Before anybody thinks it'd be ghetto, this gun (w/o mags) would be just over $700.00 to build one's self if someone really tried to keep costs down;

 

Done1-3.jpg

 

 

The V-12's gas system doesn't really strike me as all that special. It has 5 ports at the S-12 4 port size and the puc/op-rod combo are better engineered to eliminate the running start and slam from the gas puc on the op-rod that happens with the S-12, and the V-12's puc keeps the op-rod centered.

Nearly the same results can be obtained by bottoming out a Tom Cole HD-op rod in an S-12's carrier to ensure better energy transfer directly to the carrier's shaft for durability, and a CSS Performance Puc to eliminate the puc's running start before hitting said op-rod.

 

The above said, it's all about what one's looking for IMO. Both can be spectacular weapons.

At first I was loving the novelty of the V-12, and yes, it does seem to be higher build quality from the factory, but if a person doesn't have a touch over a grand to plop down on a V-12 and they're good at research on this forum, have some simple tools and a touch of ambition, going with the S-12's a VERY good choice still the way I see it.

 

I mean, don't get me wrong, I do love my V-12, but the S-12's no slouch by any stretch of the imagination, and speaking from experience, there's a whole lot more to getting drums to run reliably on the V-12 than anybody's mentioned yet.

Prototype's in the 3rd stage and lookin' real good. smile.png

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Also, theyre is still a responsibility to home defense firearms to not try to blow the person completely up.

 

not sure I agree. If they come in my house, they should expect complete obliteration.smile.png

 

I also do not necessarily agree but there have been court cases where a jury took into account how dead you make someone. It is what is termed the reasonableness standard, and all that boils down to is a subjective opinion if your force met the "reasonablem, necessary, and non agressive" standard that determines the legitimacy of force applied form one person to another. If you "shock the conscience" then you can still be held criminally liable.

 

I would prefer to never put my freedom, and ultimately my future, into the hands of strangers who are gun haters. If you have a more "humane" way to dispatch a person then I recommend using it. A 5' tall and 102lbs. woman willnot be held to the same standard as a 6'2" 225lbs man when force is necessary.

 

just some food for thought. Any good cop who studies his job will tell you the same thing. Just as they will tell you to always say " I was in fear for my life" every chance you can during the investigation. Trying to be tough can cost you your freedom.

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Also, theyre is still a responsibility to home defense firearms to not try to blow the person completely up.

 

not sure I agree. If they come in my house, they should expect complete obliteration.smile.png

 

I also do not necessarily agree but there have been court cases where a jury took into account how dead you make someone. It is what is termed the reasonableness standard, and all that boils down to is a subjective opinion if your force met the "reasonablem, necessary, and non agressive" standard that determines the legitimacy of force applied form one person to another. If you "shock the conscience" then you can still be held criminally liable.

 

I would prefer to never put my freedom, and ultimately my future, into the hands of strangers who are gun haters. If you have a more "humane" way to dispatch a person then I recommend using it. A 5' tall and 102lbs. woman willnot be held to the same standard as a 6'2" 225lbs man when force is necessary.

 

just some food for thought. Any good cop who studies his job will tell you the same thing. Just as they will tell you to always say " I was in fear for my life" every chance you can during the investigation. Trying to be tough can cost you your freedom.

 

Well thanks God I choose to live in a state that is still free. All that shit can go to hell here in Texas. In my house. Dead, no questions asked, none.

 

 

 

all that aside. back on topic here.

 

 

Do you have other weapons? Is this going to be your first shot gun? What are you intentions for use? I think those are some good things to take into consideration.

Edited by Chevyman097
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I would agree mostly with the numbered responses, but more with Pauly's response.

 

I think it is worth pointing out that for #'s

1) there is more than one saga model 030 and 040 models are pretty comparable to vepr in feature list, but have the extra cost of converting.

 

2) Which saiga model? There are a couple of models that have pretty much the same gas system as the vepr. They also have pretty much the same other features.

 

As for reliability with weak ammo, veprs tend to come ahead, but there are examples of both that need work. Further, the work with the saigas isn't a huge deal like he made it sound. Maybe 0-2 hours required tops, for 95% or more of owners.

 

2) a. All this stuff about shouldering the gun is pure malarkey. If you have your gun gassed properly, it should run however you hold it. A weapon that only works when everything is done right is simply inferior to a weapon that works under any circumstances. with both brands, the gun may be there already out of the box, but if not costs about $4 in drill bits, a couple trips to the range and a 15 minutes to a couple of hours of your time to achieve complete reliability. Make your gun run whether you have fallen on your back, whether you are panicking and rush the shot, or whether you have it firmly shouldered. It is true that veprs are known for a little tighter qc for this issue, but both have had reports of needing service. For defensive ammo, both will likely run it with no questions asked.

 

6) It is thicker, but I think this is a downside. It is something you have to carry that is supposed to be nimble and responsive. Weight is a bad thing. The question you should be asking is Is it built substantially enough to be durable. The answer for both is yes. I am not aware of a single case of either having a failure due to receiver strength. So adding weight to something that never fails, is a downgrade. The principle of elegant design is that a design is perfect when there is nothing left to add or remove. In my opinion, both designs actually have more steel in the receiver than they need. There is a bunch of empty wasted space surrounded by metal that is doing nothing of value. An improved design would be slimmer, shorter in height and length, and have less gaps to let dirt in. It would not be heavier for no real reason other than that a particular factory is used to using thick metal.

 

A heavier gun should kick less. However, there is a consensus that the Vepr 12 kicks more, and is heavier. This is not an engineering triumph, considering that it is essentially a copy incorporating many of the features developed in the American aftermarket, and international competitive circles.

 

 

 

All that said, Vepr looks to be excellent value for money, and whether you bought an S12 030 or a vepr 12 you would not be making a mistake.

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