Veper 12: Lemon or POS weapon

[Aries144 10]

Solrus,

 

Iif you aren't going to make use of your warranty, I might know what you need to get your VEPR running.

 

I got my Vepr 12 running great with everything from dove loads to 3" buck (except the cheap Estate #7 1/2 stuff, which has a unique issue).

I noticed you mention trouble with your trigger parts sticking when using a brake, and that makes me think your issue might be caused by your FCG, as it was with mine.

 

The thing causing my FTE issues turned out to be way too much resistance latching the hammer, caused by poor fit/interaction between the hammer and disconnector. I noticed that the unusually strong force needed to cock the hammer occured just millimeters before the bolt passed the extractor. My Vepr bolt's approach to shell ejection was like a kid peddaling with all his might to jump a ramp on a bike and then slamming on the brakes right before hitting the ramp. SCREEEECH "Oh No!" [Plop] And there's my bolt, underneath a bike, resting on its nose, its butt in the air, with a spent shotgun shell sticking out the side of its face.

Carefully using a dremel, a file, and some sand paper, I made my trigger parts look nearly identicle to the IPSC Vepr 12 FCG. This solved all of my problems (except for my issues with Estate shells).

 

Scroll down to the pictures of the IPSC FCGs, a quarter way down the thread. Pay attention to the way the sear section of the trigger and the disconnector, on the right side of the pics, are shaped differently from your stock FCG: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/72450-vepr-12-vpo-205-01-custom-edition-project/

I also found it beneficial to slightly reduce the rear part of the hammer that interfaces the disconnector to further reduce contact and friction between those parts.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Aries144

[S12KS-K 40]

 

However, folks have been flamed for raising legitimate criticisms of the Vepr-12.

LOL the VEPR-12 is an over hyped TURD with a polymer rail lol!! Saiga 030's use a steel rail.

Edited February 27, 2013 by S12KS-K

[Aries144 10]

Ahh. I love the ignore feature.

[S12KS-K 40]

^ lol plugging your ears won't make the problem disappear.

[gtnichols 51]

Lemon or not, the vepr 12 seems to be just as needy as any saiga 12, if TROMIX offered one that fit the MD 20 with the MD arms magwell adapter or some other manufactured magwell that fits the S-12 or Vepr 12 and the MD 20, that' be cool!

[Mullet Man 2,114]

Is a V12 a lemon? Far from it. Now a box stock S12 is typically a lemon by dealership/auto industry definition.

 

It has a plastic rail, OH NOES!

It still has a butt load of other cool features that even the comparable Saiga 030 does not have.... Unique safety lever, 1.5mm thick receiver, numerous serialized parts, heavier barrel, RPK sight leaf etc.

 

V12 is definitely not a lemon.

[S12KS-K 40]

But why you mad bruh?

 

I think what most people fail to realize is that it's a combat shotgun designed mainly for buckshot. It was never intended to be used for dove hunts, lol..

[Mullet Man 2,114]

But why you mad bruh?

 

I think what most people fail to realize is that it's a combat shotgun designed mainly for buckshot. It was never intended to be used for dove hunts, lol..

 

So should we join the side of the liberals and say "why do we need them since they are made for combat?"

[S12KS-K 40]

Bruh bruh, all I'm sayin' is

 

Actually, I see that there's already a solution to this MAJOR design flaw: http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-1654/Vepr12-dustcover-rail/Detail?sfs=ce4a33c5

I just noticed that the hinge is a STAKED pin rather than the rivet that's on the S12 hinge. *LOL*

Edited February 28, 2013 by S12KS-K

[Aries144 10]

The Saiga versions of the Vepr 12 are just overpriced knockoffs that can't be made to run anything other than birdshot. They break piston rivets and trunnion welds AND they don't have an external LGTRBHO.

Back on topic, if you're having FTE issues, run the gun with the topcover open to eliminate that front rivet as the problem and if there's no change, look to your FCG as I posted above.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

It happens.

 

To call it a "major design flaw" would be subjective, especially since it does not affect the functioning reliability of it, again by definition of "lemon". The iron sights that came with it, work.

 

But I agree, it should be a metal rail of some sort. And thanks to CSS for stepping up with a replacement part.

*Subjective opinion*....A V12 at original price of <$1K is/was still a better buy then a comparable 030 Saiga.

[S12KS-K 40]

I got my 030 for about $800 and did the conversion myself. lol

[Mullet Man 2,114]

I got my 030 for about $800 and did the conversion myself. lol

 

Well bro, bruh, brah, you are undefeatable!

[ec4321 113]

lol

 

wut the fak just happened.

[filthygovemploye 64]

hfahah, internet flame war??? i dont like diamonds casue that lionardo di craprio movie.. he says "brew" alot in there...

 

whats this concept of grinding on sears? ipsc triggers? are folks really diong that?

[solrus 2]

The Saiga versions of the Vepr 12 are just overpriced knockoffs that can't be made to run anything other than birdshot. They break piston rivets and trunnion welds AND they don't have an external LGTRBHO.

 

Back on topic, if you're having FTE issues, run the gun with the topcover open to eliminate that front rivet as the problem and if there's no change, look to your FCG as I posted above.

Thank you! Will explore!

[MAKAK47 21]

thread somehow went horribly retarded...

I'm going to look into how to polish the hammer and other shit also, I want it silky smooth

[red_cedar 28]

I got my 030 for about $800 and did the conversion myself. lol

 

 

Do you have any pictures you could show?

I got my 030 for about $900 due to the exceptional customer service by Alex.

 

i still see more threads with Vepr12 problems than 030 problems.

Edited February 28, 2013 by red_cedar

[S12KS-K 40]

I got my 030 for about $800 and did the conversion myself. lol

 

 

Do you have any pictures you could show?

I got my 030 for about $900 due to the exceptional customer service by Alex.

 

i still see more threads with Vepr12 problems than 030 problems.

 

Yes, in my gallery on this site. I just replaced the tapco folding stock with an Arsenal AK-74 stock and I'm still waiting on my MD Arms molot grip.

 

That's my point exactly. How many saiga receivers have failed? The extra thick receiver is just more weight. The thread is asking whether the Vepr is a lemon and I put my .02 in. I'm glad I decided to go with Izhmash every time a new "x,y and z is wrong with my vepr 12" thread pops up.

[Aries144 10]

For those immune to sarcasm, there is no piston rivet, nor any welds on most Kalashnikov trunnions (Whoops, I forgot about the welds connecting the trunnion to the rear sight base on the Vepr 12. My mistake). There is also no Lesbian Gay Transgender exterior anything on any Kalashnikov-derived rifle or shotgun. That I know of.

 

The only adults I ever knew to laugh at people having problems and then brag about how much smarter they were for avoiding those problems didn't have much else to contribute to a conversation. I see no challenge to that observation here.

Guys, the modification I suggested cured my Vepr 12 of FTE issues with birdshot. I'm shooting Winchester AA #7 1/2, Remington Shurshot #7 1/2 and #8, and everything else I've tried without malfunction, except the cheap Estate birshot in the white boxes that goes for $4.99/25 rnds. The cheap Estate shells have a unique, recessed, crimp which leaves an excessively protruding lip around the front of the shell which will sometimes collapse outward into the extractor slot in front of the Vepr 12's chamber during feeding, causing a Failure to Feed.

I'm willing to bet that most people's FTE issues stem from the way the FCG's were hand tuned at the factory or the way the receiver holes for the FCGs were drilled. Go ahead and try manually cocking the hammer with your thumb. Now compare this with any other Kalashnikov rifle you can get your hands on. The FCG in the Vepr 12 requires much more force than that needed on a Kalashnikov rifle to latch the hammer. I don't mean the hammer spring tension, I mean the force it takes to actually latch the hammer on the trigger. Go ahead and dry fire then pull your bolt to the rear, with your eye on the ejector. The large amount of force needed to push the hammer past the disconnector to latch it onto the trigger occurs just before the bolt assembly reaches the ejector. This is robbing the bolt assembly of momentum right before the ejection part of the cycle.

You can use a lighter recoil spring, which allows the bolt assembly more momentum from the start of the cycle, but this is also allowing the bolt to unlock earlier which might accellerate wear or have other negative consequences.

Having seen pictures of the Russian factory IPSC FCG modification, which I provided a link to above, it seems likely to me that the Russians might have invented this modification to allow reliable use with lighter loads, like those typically seen in competition. It certainly resolved my issues 100% without requiring the use of a lighter recoil spring for birdshot and a heavier spring for slugs, buckshot, and game loads.

[DresNightfire 39]

For those immune to sarcasm, there is no piston rivet, nor any welds on most Kalashnikov trunnions (Whoops, I forgot about the welds connecting the trunnion to the rear sight base on the Vepr 12. My mistake). There is also no Lesbian Gay Transgender exterior anything on any Kalashnikov-derived rifle or shotgun. That I know of.

 

The only adults I ever knew to laugh at people having problems and then brag about how much smarter they were for avoiding those problems didn't have much else to contribute to a conversation. I see no challenge to that observation here.

 

Guys, the modification I suggested cured my Vepr 12 of FTE issues with birdshot. I'm shooting Winchester AA #7 1/2, Remington Shurshot #7 1/2 and #8, and everything else I've tried without malfunction, except the cheap Estate birshot in the white boxes that goes for $4.99/25 rnds. The cheap Estate shells have a unique, recessed, crimp which leaves an excessively protruding lip around the front of the shell which will sometimes collapse outward into the extractor slot in front of the Vepr 12's chamber during feeding, causing a Failure to Feed.

 

I'm willing to bet that most people's FTE issues stem from the way the FCG's were hand tuned at the factory or the way the receiver holes for the FCGs were drilled. Go ahead and try manually cocking the hammer with your thumb. Now compare this with any other Kalashnikov rifle you can get your hands on. The FCG in the Vepr 12 requires much more force than that needed on a Kalashnikov rifle to latch the hammer. I don't mean the hammer spring tension, I mean the force it takes to actually latch the hammer on the trigger. Go ahead and dry fire then pull your bolt to the rear, with your eye on the ejector. The large amount of force needed to push the hammer past the disconnector to latch it onto the trigger occurs just before the bolt assembly reaches the ejector. This is robbing the bolt assembly of momentum right before the ejection part of the cycle.

 

You can use a lighter recoil spring, which allows the bolt assembly more momentum from the start of the cycle, but this is also allowing the bolt to unlock earlier which might accellerate wear or have other negative consequences.

 

Having seen pictures of the Russian factory IPSC FCG modification, which I provided a link to above, it seems likely to me that the Russians might have invented this modification to allow reliable use with lighter loads, like those typically seen in competition. It certainly resolved my issues 100% without requiring the use of a lighter recoil spring for birdshot and a heavier spring for slugs, buckshot, and game loads.

 

I upgraded my trigger to a lighter Texas Shooter's Supply Tapco G2, so I'll let you know how it goes next time I'm at the range with the target and birdshot loads. The Russian IPSC mods also included a lighter recoil spring and a different puc.

[solrus 2]

For those immune to sarcasm, there is no piston rivet, nor any welds on most Kalashnikov trunnions (Whoops, I forgot about the welds connecting the trunnion to the rear sight base on the Vepr 12. My mistake). There is also no Lesbian Gay Transgender exterior anything on any Kalashnikov-derived rifle or shotgun. That I know of.

 

The only adults I ever knew to laugh at people having problems and then brag about how much smarter they were for avoiding those problems didn't have much else to contribute to a conversation. I see no challenge to that observation here.

 

Guys, the modification I suggested cured my Vepr 12 of FTE issues with birdshot. I'm shooting Winchester AA #7 1/2, Remington Shurshot #7 1/2 and #8, and everything else I've tried without malfunction, except the cheap Estate birshot in the white boxes that goes for $4.99/25 rnds. The cheap Estate shells have a unique, recessed, crimp which leaves an excessively protruding lip around the front of the shell which will sometimes collapse outward into the extractor slot in front of the Vepr 12's chamber during feeding, causing a Failure to Feed.

 

I'm willing to bet that most people's FTE issues stem from the way the FCG's were hand tuned at the factory or the way the receiver holes for the FCGs were drilled. Go ahead and try manually cocking the hammer with your thumb. Now compare this with any other Kalashnikov rifle you can get your hands on. The FCG in the Vepr 12 requires much more force than that needed on a Kalashnikov rifle to latch the hammer. I don't mean the hammer spring tension, I mean the force it takes to actually latch the hammer on the trigger. Go ahead and dry fire then pull your bolt to the rear, with your eye on the ejector. The large amount of force needed to push the hammer past the disconnector to latch it onto the trigger occurs just before the bolt assembly reaches the ejector. This is robbing the bolt assembly of momentum right before the ejection part of the cycle.

 

You can use a lighter recoil spring, which allows the bolt assembly more momentum from the start of the cycle, but this is also allowing the bolt to unlock earlier which might accellerate wear or have other negative consequences.

 

Having seen pictures of the Russian factory IPSC FCG modification, which I provided a link to above, it seems likely to me that the Russians might have invented this modification to allow reliable use with lighter loads, like those typically seen in competition. It certainly resolved my issues 100% without requiring the use of a lighter recoil spring for birdshot and a heavier spring for slugs, buckshot, and game loads.

How much do u charge for a trigger work? I'm afraid I can screw it out.

[solrus 2]

What is the mechanics behind short and so on different pucks mods?? short puck plus light spring vs short puck and regular spring?

Edited March 1, 2013 by solrus

[Aries144 10]

I upgraded my trigger to a lighter Texas Shooter's Supply Tapco G2, so I'll let you know how it goes next time I'm at the range with the target and birdshot loads. The Russian IPSC mods also included a lighter recoil spring and a different puc.

 

I hope it works out. I don't know if the issue is stemming from the specific qualities of the factory FCG or if it's caused by variations on the pin holes in the receiver.

 

I can only assume that the lighter recoil spring and different puck have something to do with running the shotgun with lighter loads than our typical birdshot loads for reduced recoil in competition OR that the Russian shotguns have a different gas port arrangement to what we're getting here.

 

How much do u charge for a trigger work? I'm afraid I can screw it out.

 

I'm just a hobbyist man. If you live close I'd be happy to help you out for free.

[solrus 2]

 

I'm just a hobbyist man. If you live close I'd be happy to help you out for free.

 

 

MT?

[DresNightfire 39]

How much do u charge for a trigger work? I'm afraid I can screw it out.

There are no screws involved. Looks like you need to remove the retaining plate out of the way first (on the left inside wall). I used my pocket knife to pry it away from the wall and then use a pair of needle nose pliers to pull it out. Let me know if you have any luck.

[solrus 2]

Ok finally got faster loads. And also tried 1250 fps with open dust cover, still FTEs, but no FTEs with 1290 and up. Also 12 rnd SGM mag sucks , failure to feed and jams.

 

 

Vepr 12 Win target loads 1300 fps no brake http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ghyzt7jsrM&feature=youtu.be

 

Vepr 12 Win target loads 1290 fps with CSS brake http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bMgMCM82jc&feature=youtu.be

 

Vepr 12 Win target loads 1290 and 1300 fps CSS brake SGM 12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlrhJ0p1TdA&feature=youtu.be

[Aries144 10]

That makes sense. The 12rnd mags have more spring tension and increase friction on the carrier. My Vepr 12 behaved in a similar manner, often feeding fine with the 5rnd mag, but choking with the SGM 12rnd mags.

Again, reducing the friction on the carrier should do the trick. I think the best course of action is to look at reducing friction first, using a ligfhter recoil spring a distant second, and enlarging gas ports a last resort only.

Take a video while pushing down and latching the hammer with your thumb. Focus on the interaction between the hammer and disconnector. I want to see if your disconnector is providing as much resistence as mine was. It bears repeating that I've never seen another AK FCG work with as much interference from the disconnector to cocking hammer as my Vepr 12 had. I'm curious to see whether they're all that way or whether mine was a fluke. I'm betting that they're hand-fitted and that it varies from example to example.

The report of failures to feed is disconcerting. Can you take a picture or describe the details of the malfunction i.e. what caused the malfuction? Was the bolt hung up on the magaine? Was a round jammed into breach face or below feed ramp, etc?

I recently discovered that, while the SGM mags feed 3" shells just fine if they are loaded into the magazine and shortly after shot, if the shells are left loaded in the mag, with the magazine inserted in the shotgun overnight, the 3" shells deform slightly, which is enough to alter their feed angle and cause failures to feed with shells jamming into the flat face just below the feed ramp. Reprofiling the feedramp as demonstrated in the PDF document here eliminated the problem and seems to have been beneficial in further reducing feeding failures with the cheap Estate shells.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Aries144