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Same ol', same 'ol, but indulge me anyway, please


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Having more or less mastered the craft of putting all my rounds into the black at 100 yards with iron sights, I find myself increasingly interested in a scope. I have on the .308 the plate for a side mount. I'm wondering which of many mounts available might be that preferred by most of the forumites here. I'm also wondering what scope might be sufficient for, say, reaching out accurately to, say, 600 yards. In browsing the forum, I see that the Russian PSOP seems to be a fave. Can anybody attest to its quality and give me an average price for one of these. Thanks, and Merry Christmas to all.

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I'm 70 years old and I wear trifocals.

 

A month ago in Arizona I fired a Weatherby .30-06 with a scope. The way the scope was set, I had to get down in there close to find a picture not obscured by the black. The rifle kicked back and the scope ring caught me in the bridge of the nose. Surprised the hell out of me.

 

You could say I didn't have it tight enough into the shoulder, and that may be the case. But a few minutes before I fired an old lever-action Marlin in .45-70 at 75 yards and put a round between the 9 and 10 rings on the second shot, iron sights.

 

Handed it over after that. Talk about kick.

 

What I'm looking for here is advice on an aiming aid, specifically for old phuques with specs. I'm happy with iron sights as far as they go, which for me is 100 yards, MOA all in the black. But I'm asking for advice on how to enhance that. Range (re: 600 yards-plus) is one thing, and to maximize that I need a scope. Sight picture is another. Much as I know, one is not both. If any of you have run the same kind of situation, what's worked for you?

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I like the scout scope. Forward mounted so it cant hit you. Very fast.

 

The red dots will also work but a good one is costly.

 

The Russian scopes look good for the money but not sure on getting repairs. My choice would be a low powered one for the large field of view. Take a look at one before you buy.

 

Presently I have a Primary Arms 1x4 scope and like it.

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You should consider the Russian optics to be disposable. There is no way to get them serviced or repaired that I have been able to discover. I gave my brother a new PK-AS red dot for Christmas one year, and it died without having seen much use at all. Huge disappointment. There is no place to send it for repair.

 

I have a POSP 8x scope and it was okay, but you are better off saving your money for an American made scope from a company with a good reputation. I took it off my .308 and installed a Redfield 3x9 (one of the new ones made by Leupold) on a TWS rail. This is a lighter, less bulky setup, which allows for a stock that folds to the left. The side rail mounts more or less preclude that.

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I read this as highly recommended.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/7-MIAKSM

 

But I've also read that all the optics rails that use the side-mount are a crapshoot in that once you attach them yours may or may not get your scope centered enough to be able to zero it properly (with room for substantial windage and elevation adjustments) or at all. That being said, the MI AK rail (the link above) looks like it's centered over the dust cover very well. The more common side-mount optics rails such as this http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AKS-006

...are the kind that tend to have the alignment issues.

 

Anything that's called "Beryl" or "dog leg" mount, something that runs from the rear trunnion or buttstock tang to the rear sight area, is generally going to be the sturdiest optics mount and most likely to retain zero. Something like these:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/AKS-072?pagenumber=2

http://texasweaponsystems.com/id1.html

 

All of these options increase field strip complexity quite a bit (have to remove sight base just to remove dust cover) considering how easy it is to take apart a stock AK (push the recoil spring assembly button and BAM you're inside the receiver). Personally I don't find that to be an issue because once you have your AK-type weapon figured out it should be smooth sailing for at least ten thousand rounds assuming basic periodic maintenance...in other words, if your Saiga has never jammed on you, or, if it has and you were able to clear it simply by charging it back again ("clearing" it like you would any other failure to fire or feed, standard operating procedure), you shouldn't have to worry about having to pop the dust cover off in the middle of a firefight. In either case, a side-arm is a must. That's just my $.02

 

No matter what, do your research...read as many reviews as you can. I didn't look at reviews of anything of the products I posted links to, those are just examples. Just because it looks sturdy (like it'll hold a zero) doesn't mean it will. Now that I look at again at the TWS Dogleg system, it looks pretty flimsy since everything is mounted to the dust cover which is held on pretty flimsily just like the factory dust cover (except the front has a little more security being put into the factory rear sight mount).

 

You shouldn't have to worry about a scope hitting you in the face if you're shooting correctly (not a jab, just the truth). I didn't touch a scoped rifle until I had read The Ultimate Sniper by Major John Plaster...and when I finally did I seemed to already be more familiar with using optics than most of my shooting buddies are. I highly recommend this book to anyone and everyone because it no only teaches you how to shoot any rifle long distance but also ones with scopes as well as providing a ton of information about field craft, strategy/tactics, and gear. It's more or less a specialized but nonetheless incredibly useful survival manual.

http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Sniper-Advanced-Training-Military/dp/1581604947

Edited by ColoradoKLR650
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Now that I look at again at the TWS Dogleg system, it looks pretty flimsy since everything is mounted to the dust cover which is held on pretty flimsily just like the factory dust cover (except the front has a little more security being put into the factory rear sight mount).

 

Have you ever actually handled the TWS rail? Because it is quite sturdy. It does not attach to the dust cover at all; you remove the dust cover, and the TWS rail replaces it entirely. It mounts solidly to the rear sight base up front (the sight is removed completely), and is held very tightly to the receiver in the rear. Once the takedown button cams into place and the carrier has cycled a few times (which really shoves it in there tight), it is not moving at all. And if you do need to strip the rifle, the zero is repeatable.

 

The rail itself is milled out of a solid piece of aluminum, with the only joint being where the dogleg attaches to the rail, which has slotted bolt holes so you can adjust the length, to account for variations between individual rifles. And even that is held by more than just the screw tension; there is a machined interference fit between the two parts, so that once the screws have been snugged down, even if you loosen them, you still have to pry the two pieces apart to re-adjust. Plus all the threaded holes have stainless heli-coils (threaded inserts) installed, which is much stronger than just threading the fasteners directly into the aluminum.

 

Overall it's a very solid piece. I think that any impact hard enough to damage it or knock it out of zero would most likely also damage or destroy your optic.

Edited by Netpackrat
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I have never handled the TWS system in person.

 

I see now on their website that the system has a new recoil spring assembly which clamps down on the dust cover/rail unit as you mentioned. Seems legit, but I think it would be fairly easy to lose zero if a hit on the recoil spring button moved it forward enough to no longer clamp down the rail/cover. Obviously firing some rounds would hit it back into place, but I don't see anything actually holding the recoil spring assembly in place except for the trunnion which doesn't limit forward motion. I thought this would be a weakness on my Tech Sights but in that case the sight platform is kept from moving forward out of the trunnion by the replacement dust cover. Also, the ability of the new recoil spring assembly to hold down the rail/cover and repeat zero is only legit if the recoil spring assembly itself fits into the rear trunnion with absolutely zero play. The Tech Sights have a tension screw to space it in the trunnion perfectly.

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While I am not 70, I am 2/3's there. You can spend quite a bit on the side mounts as well as the scopes. I went with the UTG side mount and a Millett DMS-1 to go on a 16" S308. Works ok and didn't kill the budget. The Millett is only good out to about 400 to 500. If you want 600 you'll have to go with something else.

 

I would suggest a trip to sportsman warehouse or other large store and double check on the eye relief. That's the one thing that is changing for me overtime as the glasses get thicker and have lines across them.

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I see now on their website that the system has a new recoil spring assembly which clamps down on the dust cover/rail unit as you mentioned. Seems legit, but I think it would be fairly easy to lose zero if a hit on the recoil spring button moved it forward enough to no longer clamp down the rail/cover. Obviously firing some rounds would hit it back into place, but I don't see anything actually holding the recoil spring assembly in place except for the trunnion which doesn't limit forward motion

 

No. As I said, the takedown button cams the rail down against the top of the receiver tightly. Once it's in place, the spring isn't what's holding it anymore, and it takes some effort to push the button in and release the rail. If the button does somehow get pushed in inadvertently, cycle the carrier back hard a couple of times to re-set it. It won't lose zero because it returns to zero.

 

And it's not in a location that's prone to getting hit in the first place. On my S.308, anything that would hit the takedown button would probably hit the 3x9 scope first:

 

s308sneaky.jpg

 

Also, the ability of the new recoil spring assembly to hold down the rail/cover and repeat zero is only legit if the recoil spring assembly itself fits into the rear trunnion with absolutely zero play.

 

Wrong. The return to zero is not dependant at all on the fit of the takedown button into the rear trunnion. The rail has a spring tab at the rear that exerts constant pressure against the side of the receiver, which holds it in position regardless of side to side fit of the takedown button in the trunnion. And the vertical stop is the rail resting against the top of the receiver itself.

 

One thing that I might add, that I don't think I've mentioned yet in this thread... If you get a TWS rail, I recommend buying the regular one that fits a standard AK, and NOT the one they say is specifically for the S.308. The takedown button on the S.308 version has a hanging dangly that is supposed to replicate the function of the "buffer" on the stock S.308 button, but at least on my rifle, it didn't work. It actually kept the button from seating correctly in the rail, which defeated the return to zero (or any zero at all, really, because the whole thing wobbled). I ditched that button and installed the standard one with a Blackjack buffer to keep the carrier from jumping the rails at the rear, and have had no issues since. I'd rather not have had to use the buffer, but I think it's the best solution overall. I keep a spare buffer in the grip compartment.

 

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You said "no", and then basically repeated what I said in my quote about how an inward hit on the button could lose zero because it would allow the rail to move...!?

 

I see now on their website that the system has a new recoil spring assembly which clamps down on the dust cover/rail unit as you mentioned. Seems legit, but I think it would be fairly easy to lose zero if a hit on the recoil spring button moved it forward enough to no longer clamp down the rail/cover. Obviously firing some rounds would hit it back into place, but I don't see anything actually holding the recoil spring assembly in place except for the trunnion which doesn't limit forward motion

 

 

No. As I said, the takedown button cams the rail down against the top of the receiver tightly. Once it's in place, the spring isn't what's holding it anymore, and it takes some effort to push the button in and release the rail. If the button does somehow get pushed in inadvertently, cycle the carrier back hard a couple of times to re-set it. It won't lose zero because it returns to zero.

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You said "no", and then basically repeated what I said in my quote about how an inward hit on the button could lose zero because it would allow the rail to move...!?

 

 

What I'm saying, is it would take a fairly substantial hit from just the right angle to push the button inward by accident. It's not likely to begin with, and it's something you are going to notice. It isn't going to "lose" zero because when you fix it by working the carrier to the rear, it resets back to zero. That's what it's designed to do. The recoil spring isn't what holds it in place at all; it is primarily the camming force from being shoved into the slot. It takes a pretty healthy shove when you want to open up the rifle. If you're really paranoid about it, you could make a mark on the button at the edge of the cover where it protrudes. Then you could know at a glance if the button has moved inward at all. Make it on the top of the button where there isn't hard contact. A narrow groove with some orange paint in it would be ideal.

 

And it's not as though there is any other scope mounting solution that will do what the TWS will do, which is allow allow you to mount a scope centered over the receiver, simultaneous use of the iron sights, and the use of a stock that folds to the left. If you want to use a different mount, you have to pick 2 of those 3. There are side rails that will do the first two, but then you give up a stock that folds to the left , at least with the mount installed. And I'm not aware of any non-side mount that will let you mount an optic over the receiver , that is low enough to let you use the irons with an optic installed. One way to get all 3 with the TWS, is a magnified scope on see-through rings like I have on my .308. You can also get a low co-witness with a red dot using the extra low rings from Aimpoint, and the TWS dog leg replacement piece that has a rear leaf milled into it. But you need to have the right rings for that, because the ones that came with the aimpoint on my other AK were not low enough.

 

I think even with the Krebs rail, you still have to dismount the optic to use the built in peep sight.

Edited by Netpackrat
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I have had good results with this rail system on my 308. Dph breyl style rail with quick detach rear. I had to fit it to the rear tang a very little bit. A lot better than the BP-02 side mout I started off with. Also krebs makes a darn good rail as well from what I have read.

post-9518-0-10773300-1357423960_thumb.jpg

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The Beryl rail with the quick release and the Krebs both look nice. I didn't really consider either of them, because they aren't compatible with a cut tang stock conversion, plus the TWS rail is lower. Being lower doesn't help a huge amount in my application (other than retaining use of the irons) due to the scope objective bell needing to clear the rear sight block and dogleg. But with something like a 1-4 power scope with a straight tube style objective, it would help you mount the scope a lot lower than any of the other options.

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The dph rail has a channel milled out to alow use of irons with the scope taken off .

 

I figured you'd be able to use the irons with the optic removed. I would want QD rings with a setup like that, but it would be workable. To get on my irons, all I have to do is slightly loosen the thumb nuts on my cheek rest, and give it a push down.

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