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Saiga 12 will not cycle low brass (but it used to)


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I got my s12 a while ago and coverted it. I could run wal-mart federal/winchester target loads flawlessly. I could completely dump a 20 round drum without any cycling issues. I did this many times. This changed the first time I used high brass. I shot 5 magnum slugs through it, but forgot to turn the gas down. Ever since, it will not cycle low brass (the exact same ones I've used before) even with the gas all the way open. Could shooting powerful shells with the gas too high somehow damaged it?

 

(Even stock, all 3 gas ports were unobstructed. This was not a vodka gun.)

 

To attempt to fix this issue I have :

tried taking it to a very reputable saiga gunsmith who drilled out all 3 gas ports a very slight amount

I tried taking off my limbsaver pad (squishy recoil absorbing stock pad)

bought and installed "low brass reliabilty kit" from CSS which included a different recoil spring and gas plug.

I bought and installed a new recoil rod from CSS

 

Nothing I have done has made even a slight difference. My saiga is very clean, adequately lubed, and there is no apparent damage on the internals.

My gun will still cycle high brass, but not the low brass it used to. I don't understand why.

What could the issue be? I'm going crazy here.

 

Thanks for your help

 

 

Here's pics of the internals. I have not have any Failure to fires, the issue is constant FTEs.

The 2nd and last (bottom) images I circled in green where material is worn and raised. Very miniscule, but could this cause FTEs?

http://imageshack.us/a/img145/7156/p1020033u.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img43/817/p1020032z.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img89/1638/p1020029ck.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img59/1882/p1020025x.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img811/3967/p1020024g.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img341/352/p1020019dl.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img706/6662/p1020016nd.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img404/6162/p1020014z.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img580/6936/p1020015u.jpg



Edited by Turbo.M777
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I hate attempting to diagnose this stuff from afar. Tons of time is wasted on it. Where are you? Maybe there is someone nearby that actually knows what they are doing and can take a look at it.

 

In the most basic sense, something changed.

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I hate attempting to diagnose this stuff from afar. Tons of time is wasted on it. Where are you? Maybe there is someone nearby that actually knows what they are doing and can take a look at it.

 

In the most basic sense, something changed.

 

I'm in Salt Lake city, Utah. There's a very reputable guy nearby who did the work on my gas ports, he thought that would fix the issue. Haven't been able to get ahold of him though the last couple weeks (probably due to the chaos of the market right now) his gunsmithing consists almost entirely with custom saiga 12s.

 

Dirty or the pin in the bolt is sticking out some. I agree with evl though, hard to diagnose from afar. These are just two common problems on a gun that was working....

 

Its definitely not dirty, I'll have a look and see if any pins look off when I get home from work tonight. My thoughts have me thinking that something was bent or altered when I fired those slugs with too much gas. What would be likely to bend or get damaged with too much gas? Maybe the bolt slamming back too hard did something? There's nothing obvious that sticks out. I thought maybe the recoil rod could be bent, but I replaced that, so that possibility is out.

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Best thing is to rule out the simple. You said it's clean. So field strip it, like your goint to clean it, and check your axis pins, make sure they're all properly installed, make sure your sheperds crook/ or retainer plate is in properly, from there go through and check for any mechanical annomilies... things with too much wobble, or broken. Use a pen light to observe closely. Something had to change...

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Best thing is to rule out the simple. You said it's clean. So field strip it, like your goint to clean it, and check your axis pins, make sure they're all properly installed, make sure your sheperds crook/ or retainer plate is in properly, from there go through and check for any mechanical annomilies... things with too much wobble, or broken. Use a pen light to observe closely. Something had to change...

 

Ok I'll give that a shot

 

 

Are you having FTE's, FTF's or both? Take the low recoil spring out. Check the full strength spring for damage.

 

Only FTE. Ive never had a FTF. The springs are completely intact

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If it was running fine before with the existing port surface area, the 'smith should have been looking elsewhere for the problem, be it user error, damaged parts, etc.. However, if you merely instructed him to enlarge the ports and didn't explain what was going on, I can see why he did it.

 

Did you communicate the weapon's previous performance and all of the other details?

 

 

FWIW, I intentionally fire a bunch of Remington Express 3" 00 Buck in my SBS (avatar) in an effort to replicate something that a customer might do. I did it to see if anything would fail and to learn what that failure looked like, as far as damage to the weapon was concerned. The weapon was bringing the pain and finally broke the carrier. Outside of that, I could see no damage. I fixed the carrier and continue to do the same testing to see if I can now break the carrier repair with misuse. It shows no signs of failing. Generally, the only things that will suffer damage from firing on the wrong setting are usually the carrier, op rod, firing pin, bolt tail, or rear block. 5 rounds is usually not enough to cause any significant damage, unless something was already wrong.

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Here are some items to check. 1. clean the gas tube with automotive brake cleaner, this will take out the burnout gunk in the tube. Remove your front handguard, it will be damaged by the brake cleaner. 2. clean bolt carrier with brake cleaner, remember the firing pin is stiff because it has a spring. To much oil and grease plus foul gunk can jam the firing pin.3. make sure the gunsmith drilled those gas ports in an angle... check around the forum.4. Need to clean / replace the guide spring front and back.5. check the condition of firing hammer spring, may need to replace it ... go for the performance spring from css.

Edited by smanuta
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my advice. listen to mike, check your op-rod. i'm sure he is speaking from experience. i replaced mine with a tom cole H.D. one. because i felt that the stress on an s12 rod is probably more than on a rifle op-rod. i could be wrong. but the stronger the better for me.

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could you post pictures of the bolt and carrier? a complete picture of the carrier, and a picture of the bolt lug channel would be the most relevent, along with a picture of the bolt lug itself. also, maybe a picture of the inside of the gas block, for the hell of it.

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If it was running fine before with the existing port surface area, the 'smith should have been looking elsewhere for the problem, be it user error, damaged parts, etc.. However, if you merely instructed him to enlarge the ports and didn't explain what was going on, I can see why he did it.

 

Did you communicate the weapon's previous performance and all of the other details?

 

 

FWIW, I intentionally fire a bunch of Remington Express 3" 00 Buck in my SBS (avatar) in an effort to replicate something that a customer might do. I did it to see if anything would fail and to learn what that failure looked like, as far as damage to the weapon was concerned. The weapon was bringing the pain and finally broke the carrier. Outside of that, I could see no damage. I fixed the carrier and continue to do the same testing to see if I can now break the carrier repair with misuse. It shows no signs of failing. Generally, the only things that will suffer damage from firing on the wrong setting are usually the carrier, op rod, firing pin, bolt tail, or rear block. 5 rounds is usually not enough to cause any significant damage, unless something was already wrong.

 

Yeah I explained I just wanted it fixed. The smith reccomended enlarging the gas ports. He said that most saigas dont get enough gas, and enlarging them slightly wouldn't harm anything, but would make it more reliable in cycling low brass. Your statement is logical, and obviously now I know for sure its something else.

 

I took everything apart and looked at it again, there are no missing/protruding pins. I did notice my op rod wobbles slightly. I dont remember if it was ever 100% solid. Is it normal for it to wiggle in the carrier a little bit?

 

 

 

 

 

 

could you post pictures of the bolt and carrier? a complete picture of the carrier, and a picture of the bolt lug channel would be the most relevent, along with a picture of the bolt lug itself. also, maybe a picture of the inside of the gas block, for the hell of it.

 

 

 

Yeah I'll get some pics when I get home from work tonight

Edited by Turbo.M777
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My gun will still cycle high brass, but not the low brass it used to. I don't understand why.

What could the issue be? I'm going crazy here.

 

Thanks for your help

 

I'm a technican by trade, so forgive my questions if they seem so basic they are insulting. I like to rule out the obvious:

-Are you using a stock gas plug? Setting 1 or 2? (I know that's obvious, lower brass, higher gas)

-did you check your gas ports yourself with a dental pick (or equivalent, a stripped twist tie will do)?

-can you hear your gas puck knocking back and forth when it's empty and you rotate the gun?

-are you catching anywhere inside?

-Have you tried multiple mags, all with the same issue?

-when you strip it down do you see any burrs in the action or along any of the rails? Have you polished the rails up?

-What brand of low brass are you shooting with FTE's? Winchester and Remington? Mine has never liked bulk Walmart Winchester. Federal bulk shoots perfectly out of my drum

 

Someone recommended brake cleaner. I'm not that brave, I go for hopps #9. You aren't Rem-oiling the gas system, are you?

 

If all of these hold true, then I haven't a clue. a good polish job can make a world of difference in reliability smile.png

Edited by slippingaway
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I don't know what happened to his post, but a reputable vendor said that he felt very certain that you bent your OP rod.. Hold a straight edge beside it and see if it's bent. If it is you can order a new one, and have your smith install it.

 

Checked it, and its perfectly straight. Thanks for bringing that up though. I definitely appreciate all input and suggestions

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My gun will still cycle high brass, but not the low brass it used to. I don't understand why.

What could the issue be? I'm going crazy here.

 

Thanks for your help

 

I'm a technican by trade, so forgive my questions if they seem so basic they are insulting. I like to rule out the obvious:

-Are you using a stock gas plug? Setting 1 or 2? (I know that's obvious, lower brass, higher gas)

-did you check your gas ports yourself with a dental pick (or equivalent, a stripped twist tie will do)?

-can you hear your gas puck knocking back and forth when it's empty and you rotate the gun?

-are you catching anywhere inside?

-Have you tried multiple mags, all with the same issue?

-when you strip it down do you see any burrs in the action or along any of the rails? Have you polished the rails up?

-What brand of low brass are you shooting? Mine has never liked bulk Walmart Winchester. Federal bulk shoots perfectly out of my drum

 

Someone recommended brake cleaner. I'm not that brave, I go for hopps #9. You aren't Rem-oiling the gas system, are you?

 

I'm using an aftermarket plug. the 5 position V-Plug (on full gas). I've never actually fired my saiga with the stock plug

gas ports are all open, checked with a dental pick.

same issue with 3 different mags

I can hear my gas puck when I flip my gun around

my action doesnt feel like its catching on anything

I dont see any burs, there is some minor imperfections on my bolt (see pics) is that relevant? I havent ever polished my rails, I suppose I could give that a try

I'm using both federal and winchester target loads and having the same issue.(the exact same ammo I used before without problems)

 

what do you mean by "rem-oilling"?

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ok, you pointed out what looked like wear or damage in the front of the lug channel. that spot that you circled is the spot that prevents the bolt from exiting the carrier when it is unlocking. if the gun were extremely overgassed (5 magnum slugs at full gas) it may have slammed the tip of the lug, which my picture shows circled in green, into that point of the channel hard enough to cause that damage. if it did, there should also be some corresponding damage to the tip of the lug. if there is, it will be creating a lot of extra friction when the bolt is unlocking, as these are the unlocking faces. the red line in this picture shows the face that rides the carrier channel face. check this for any unusual wear or lines.

 

in my other picture, i have shown with a red line the face of the carrier channel which does the unlocking. check this face for any unusual wear marks, in particular any kind of lines running the length of it. were looking for any signs of extra friction during the bolts unlocking. the green circle in this picture shows where the lug tip would slam into the carrier channel.

 

im guessing these faces were damaged from the violent cycling slamming the lug tip into the carrier channel, and thats where the extra friction is coming from.

 

 

heres the pics:

post-32606-0-66226100-1357246135_thumb.png

post-32606-0-46574800-1357247249_thumb.png

Edited by yooper14.5
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Ok there is some wear in those areas. Heres some better pics. When I work the bolt in the carrier by hand, I don't feel any extra friction, it feels smooth as butter. Maybe when its inside the gun that changes? I'll polish it up and see if that makes a difference

 

http://imageshack.us/a/img600/3231/p1030038u.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img855/4376/p1030037k.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img22/4110/p1030039a.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img502/1872/p1030041v.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img819/9482/p1030040g.jpg

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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, But I don't think polishing that up is going to improve it much..That carrier is really damaged. I would fill that dent with weld and remachine the slot to orginal tolerances.. Pauly used to offer similar services. You should contact him, maybe he can help, if not R&R are selling S12 carriers now.

And if you go that route, evilblkwpns has been looking for a damaged carrier.

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Those pictures are way better, and show exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of, although I'm suprised the bolt lug doesn't show any damage. That dent was created by the lug slamming into it when it unlocked. If you felt confident enough, I think you could dremel the corners of the dent out very carefully, so that the dent is gone, and the channel is smooth again. You might want to send it to somone who has more experience with the system, because if to much material is removed the carrier will rotate the bolt to far and that could cause interference with the rails. But it would be better to fix it the right way. Also, notes that I think about it, that spot has nothing to do with unlocking the bolt. It just stops it. So I would check those other surfaces (lug tip, lug face, carrier channel face) for damage. I can't see any in the pictures, but you might be able to see something we can't.

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what do you mean by "rem-oilling"?

 

Remington Oil, I know many old timers that only rem-oil their guns, and use that juice liberally. I've seen others clog the gassing system with oil by leaving it on and forming a residue. Thought I'd ask because I've seen people use rem-oil when they should be stripping the deposits off with something like Hopps9. Doesn't sound like it's the case though...

 

From the pics you've sent, I'd recommend sending it to someone like Pauly. He seems like a pretty stand up dude, and highly knowledgeable.

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did you change the handguard of your rifle? make sure you did the cover a small on the left side of the gas block?There a second hole for gas to escape, this will help push the piston back. Also, check the performance hammer spring, the spring is stif when new, make adjusts or go back to original ak hammer spring.

Edited by smanuta
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