ReadyFreddy 0 Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 I have been talking to a guy that has an injection molding machine about what it would take to manufacture hi cap mags for the Saiga .308. I've been waiting too long for mags for this rifle and figured I would do a little work to see what it would cost to make these things. What I need to know is what the market would be...how many could be sold in a reasonable amount of time to recover expenses. So if you guys could give me a ballpark estimate. I have much research to do before I would even think about investing in this project so please don't get your hopes up. Just give me an estimate. Thanx for your help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jtoddellis 2 Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=2988&hl= Be Careful Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grizzlybigbore 0 Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 look in the forum for a thread titled saiga 308 hi cap mags, started by a guy named daewoo. cpileri updated a list of how many mags people would want. look at that. im sure if mags were out there, people would buy them. griz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 (edited) That really is the question with S-308 mags. The market for S-308 mags is much smaller than for S-12 mags, and thus one could not be so certain it would be worth it to have a high tooling expense in order to produce a high volume of low cost mags. I have tended to think that higher cost lower volume methods would be more appropriate for the S-308. Another factor is what new factory mags will cost and how well they're supplied. That will affect how economical the alternatives would be. Edited November 10, 2005 by BattleRifleG3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ReadyFreddy 0 Posted November 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Are there plans for Saiga .308 factory hi cap mags???? I haven't read anything to that effect. Any information on this will help me. Thanx. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
okie shooter 0 Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 Remember that any high cap comes with the us made parts count too. so any one who wants high cap mags also has to do a conversion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 No there are no factory hi caps. I was referring to the factory 8 rounders. How they cost in comparison is a factor. Ie if the 8 rounders are so cheap that you can stock up plenty on them, a notably more expensive hi-cap would have less appeal. If the 8 rounders are on the expensive side, a US made hi-cap would hold appeal not just for being a hi-cap, but for being a good choice for a magazine period. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimmbswu 0 Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 according to the price rumors on this forum, the S-308 8-rnders will be about $30-$40 each. When the beta c-mag G3 308 drums come out, you can just convert the 8-rnder into a c-mag tower. This way, you'll get the US parts, *AND* ultra-hi-cap to boot. Not just hi-cap, ultra-hi-cap! jimmy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 Are there plans for Saiga .308 factory hi cap mags???? I haven't read anything to that effect. Any information on this will help me. Thanx. ReadyFreddy, Search the threads. This subject has been jump started so many times that the only response you are likely to get is apathy or anger. Do you by chance know a fellow who goes by the posting name Daewoo? It's amazing how many new posters raise the same S-.308 issue. There must be a fascination or obsession with the .308 mag. It's almost a pattern. Is there something inherently wrong with the eight rounder that comes with the rifle? Or are the "gods" playing with us? Wolverine Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gummerfan 0 Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 (edited) Is there something inherently wrong with the eight rounder that comes with the rifle? The problem isn't the mags, it's the zombies. Damn things just keep coming! Edited November 13, 2005 by Gummerfan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 Is there something inherently wrong with the eight rounder that comes with the rifle? The problem isn't the mags, it's the zombies. Damn things just keep coming! +1. Gummerfan, you understood my cryptic message. Well done sir!! Wolverine Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cpileri 0 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 (edited) Ahh... The famous "Daewoo 308 mag" thread: here http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=2988&st=570 That page has the last update i did, with 730-921 mags spoken for. I think between buyers not reflected on the list, and buyers ON the list who will have flaked out; that number represents close to the total market. At this point, here's what i would do 9if I could weld): I would take a steel G3 mag, and hit the sides with a grinder until it would slide up into the unmodified saiga-308 magwell. then i would weld an extra tab of metal on the front and back of the mag to act as the tabs/mimicking those present on the real saiga mag. i would expect to spend some time with a file on each mag to get it to custom fit. if necessary, i would spend some time with a file on the mag lips as well to most closely match the function/form of the original saiga mags. They would be ugly and crude, and hand fitted. but they would feed close to all 20 rounds reliably ( i think the spring tension would be too great to allow the bolt to strip the first few rounds if loaded with all 20, but that's an educated guess). And yes, i would pay for someone to make me a handful. maybe not 40 bucks for such a hackjob. But i would pay for it since it would be a FUNCTIONING hackjob! Now some fantasy... So someone decides to make 730-921 'cpileri hackjob' mags, midway between the numbers is ~825 mags. He buys his steel mags from interordnance at 6 bucks each (http://www.interordnance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=INTERORDNANCE.com&Product_Code=G3MAGST-VGC ) - pays full price since he isn't a dealer, plus shipping on 825 mags. For sake of arguement shipping is 100 bucks. So the total is (825x6) +100= 5050.00 dollars OK, so he buys a high-speed grinder and welder and brazing rods and scrap steel (for the tabs) at a cost of: Grinder:http://wttool.com/p/2005-0400 $100.00 welder; http://www.wttool.com/p/3105-0065 $150.00 Scrap steel: free from local dump gas to-and-from local dump: 10 bucks and for sake of arguement he only uses one package of rods and one grinding wheel. So he's now into the project for $5310.00 US (reserve debt notes) It takes this amateur but somewhat skilled and efficient guy 15 minutes per mag to grind to fit, and get the tabs pretty darn close; for a total of 206 hours. because he's an ametuer and an enthusiast, he cuts the small but loyal saiga world a break and charges 50 bucks per hour of manual, metal shaving and spark-breathing work. 50 bucks per hour x 206h= 10300.00 bucks. 206 hours at 8h/working day is ~26 working days! Total investment: 15,610.00 bucks. Do YOU have a month to take off from your PAYING job and money to put up front? So to break even he needs to sell EACH mag for a shipped price of 18.92. Hey, that's a COOL price- for the consumer. So being what he only considers fair, he decides to double his investment and sell each one for 40 bucks each shipped. Oops, didnt I just say i wouldn't buy a junky looking hackjob mag for 40 bucks? i sure did. OK, so he reads this post and figures it isnt worth it and forgets the idea. Now, in reality I might pay 40 bucks at this point. but i bet alot of people who posted on the famous 22,000-times-viewed thread wouldn't. Maybe its simple math, and not an ATF conspiracy of silence that's keeping these from the market. Just a thought. C- p.s. OK, who wants to help me grind up some mags??!?!?! Edited May 10, 2006 by cpileri Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vern 0 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Ok guys give this thing just a little more time. Something is cooking in the world of Saiga. Well at least in the world of Saiga 12. The USPSA magazine Front Sight just did a pretty decient mention of the Saiga 12, and at the state section match a Saiga 12 that I had just converted for a friend drew tremendous attention. For those of you who don't know USPSA stands for United States Practical Shooters Association, and is the fastest growing shooting sport in America right now. There are several manufacturers making guns and parts specifically for this sport, Springfield Armory and CZ are two of them. With the introduction of the Saiga 12 into Three gun competition, it will be only a short time before the high cap mags are available. And with interest in the Saiga 12 will come interest in the Saiga 308. At present it is the cheapest currently produced rifle that will make (major power factor) in USPSA and that means that it will work in the heavy metal division. Interest is almost garranteed, if it were only available in a 20 rnd magazine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
O.S.O.K. 0 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Ok guys give this thing just a little more time. Something is cooking in the world of Saiga. Well at least in the world of Saiga 12. The USPSA magazine Front Sight just did a pretty decient mention of the Saiga 12, and at the state section match a Saiga 12 that I had just converted for a friend drew tremendous attention. For those of you who don't know USPSA stands for United States Practical Shooters Association, and is the fastest growing shooting sport in America right now. There are several manufacturers making guns and parts specifically for this sport, Springfield Armory and CZ are two of them. With the introduction of the Saiga 12 into Three gun competition, it will be only a short time before the high cap mags are available. And with interest in the Saiga 12 will come interest in the Saiga 308. At present it is the cheapest currently produced rifle that will make (major power factor) in USPSA and that means that it will work in the heavy metal division. Interest is almost garranteed, if it were only available in a 20 rnd magazine. Well that is some encouraging news. BTW, when did USPSA pass-up CAS (Cowboy Action Shooting) in growth? Answer (to my knowledge) it didn't. Just a detail. USPSA is big and that's all that counts. Also, okie shooter stated "Remember that any high cap comes with the us made parts count too. so any one who wants high cap mags also has to do a conversion." This is acutally bassackwards - the mags do come with parts count (3) and they are would all be US-made and therefore remove 3 countable parts, not add! No conversion would be needed and if somebody decided to use the high cap mags exclusively, then they could use three imported parts like Bulgarian fire control parts or a Russian buttstock, pistol grip and foregrip for examples... Finally, cpiliari stated "That page has the last update i did, with 730-921 mags spoken for. I think between buyers not reflected on the list, and buyers ON the list who will have flaked out; that number represents close to the total market." I disagree with this. Unless he is speaking of this board only. I think the market is closer to around 5,000 mags. How many of the .308 Rifles have been imported? If you notice, almost everyone wanted 4 or more. AK buyers tend to get at least 4 and some buy 20! That really multiplies the demand. Just my 2 cents. And I now understand why some of the skeptisism on my recent post about contacting Brownell's to see if they would be interested in offering mags... But they aren't going to say "how many do you want" and then back off without comment. They are Brownells and have a reputation to uphold. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cvasqu03 21 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Also, okie shooter stated "Remember that any high cap comes with the us made parts count too. so any one who wants high cap mags also has to do a conversion." This is acutally bassackwards - the mags do come with parts count (3) and they are would all be US-made and therefore remove 3 countable parts, not add! No conversion would be needed and if somebody decided to use the high cap mags exclusively, then they could use three imported parts like Bulgarian fire control parts or a Russian buttstock, pistol grip and foregrip for examples... Actually, by reducing only the three magazine parts, a 308 Saiga would be left with the following foreign made parts: receiver trunion barrel bolt bolt carrier stock forearm gas piston trigger hammer disconnector That's one too many, so you by simply inserting a high capacity US made magazine you'd still be in violation. This is why Okie Shooter said you'd have to do the conversion. US mags on a Saiga shotgun would be a different matter because when tallying up the parts count on a Saiga shotgun you don't have to add the trunion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
O.S.O.K. 0 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 OK - see your point - because this is a high-capacity mag it falls out of the "sporting use" category - just like adding the pg or any other evil mod. Gotcha. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
okie shooter 0 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 (edited) OK - see your point - because this is a high-capacity mag it falls out of the "sporting use" category - just like adding the pg or any other evil mod. Gotcha. Ya thats the idea, once you take any saiga, or for that matter I imagine if you start building high capicity mags for hk sporting rifles, high end benelli's and such too, once over ten rounds you proably have to worry about compliance parts for a non us made rifle imported these days. Though if you built us made mags and didn't want to add parts, a us made mag would get you a long way into compliance, only one other part needed on the saigas. Too bad there is not a good us made 7.62x39 mag out there, most are considered junk compared to the "real thing" but it would make a easy conversion though. Edited May 10, 2006 by okie shooter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
O.S.O.K. 0 Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Too bad there is not a good us made 7.62x39 mag out there, most are considered junk compared to the "real thing" but it would make a easy conversion though. Yeah - weird how the US manufacturers can't come up with a good, resilient poly mag. After all, all that they have to do is copy a Bulgarian waffle and they'd home. It must be harder than it seems to use metal reinformcements. Everything that I've seen on the failures are due to lack of reinforcement at the stress points. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vern 0 Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 "BTW, when did USPSA pass-up CAS (Cowboy Action Shooting) in growth? Answer (to my knowledge) it didn't. Just a detail. USPSA is big and that's all that counts." I was refering to an end of year article in front sight magazine recapping the years events. The didn't mention any other shooting sport but unless I 'm misstaken the called USPSA the fastest growing sport. I'm trying to find out what FFL I need to aply for to do conversions for USPSA shooters. I've done a couple already (with the help of the guns owner ofcourse), and short of a little time theres really nothing to it. If your going to shoot three gun with a Saiga 308 then you probably want a US adjustable trigger any way which is your extra part. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TEXASAK73 13 Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 (edited) I was under the impression that a imported rifle could have one evil feature without the 922r crap? If this is true the one evil feature is already there in the form of a detachable magazine. Also if this is not the case,get a set of BRG3's wood furniture and then you cut down the part count by two. During the Ban M1A were still being sold,but without flashhiders and without lugs but with the ability to accept hicap mags.Domestic rifle but still followed the rule of one evil feature allowed. Edited May 13, 2006 by TEXASAK73 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tokageko 8 Posted May 13, 2006 Report Share Posted May 13, 2006 Actually, by reducing only the three magazine parts, a 308 Saiga would be left with the following foreign made parts: receiver trunion barrel bolt bolt carrier stock forearm gas piston trigger hammer disconnector That's one too many, so you by simply inserting a high capacity US made magazine you'd still be in violation. This is why Okie Shooter said you'd have to do the conversion. Adding a US made gas piston would fix that, if it were actually the case that you would only be ONE part over the limit. I'm not sure as to the specifics here though.... and I really don't care. I was also under the impression that 7.62x39 saigas could be modified to use 30 round magazines without doing a full conversion based on the fact that 30 round mags specifically made for the saiga 7.62x39 were imported legally.... Again, I could be wrong. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
O.S.O.K. 0 Posted May 14, 2006 Report Share Posted May 14, 2006 I'm trying to find out what FFL I need to aply for to do conversions for USPSA shooters. I've done a couple already (with the help of the guns owner ofcourse), and short of a little time theres really nothing to it. I believe you need a gunsmithing FFL - if you're only going to work on their rifles and not sell them any complete rifles. I have seen some BS that the BATFE was considering holding custom gunsmiths liable (tax wise) as manufactureres - which would put most all of them out of business having to pay the back taxes. But I haven't heard anything more about this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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