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My experiences with my brand new Saiga 20 thus far...


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My former S-20 stovepiped once or twice, but usually was ok. It's main problems were when not firmly backed by a shoulder. The new and happy owner had it converted to P-grip and folder and has told of the same problems when firing just from the grip.

 

Another possibility is that I think the S-20, unlike the rest of the AKs, may need a break-in period.

Edited by BattleRifleG3
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Cobra... I too have had very similar response with MY s20...

 

IT DOES require some "break in" period.

 

the low base shells FREQUENTLY stovepipe, and thats just the way it is, from all the reports on them I have read on the forums here.

 

I just keep shooting it and little by little it DOES GET BETTER... yours will too!

 

I have ZERO problems with it ejecting slugs...

 

Just the low brass stuff.

 

I have shot mine in a trap league, so ONLY ONE SHELL at a time, and a stovepipe is actually a welcome thing... meaning I am not sending a spent casing into the next guy standing yonder.

 

This has helped mine break in a little better as after several hundred rounds it ejects more and more and stovepipes less and less...

 

Be patient, friend, it will work in and be a winner. it just takes a little while...

 

:smoke:

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Ok I'm going to show my shotgun ignorance here for a sec. When you guys talk about low brass and high brass/ low base and high base shells you are referring to the actual brass part of the shell right?

All these shells are what I would call high brass meaning the brass part is like 1/2" long rather than 5/16" like some of my light 12 ga loads. Except for the Active which has no brass. The 3" Winchesters have about 11/16" of brass. Most of these shells are 2.5 Drams. How many Drams make a shell a heavy rather than a light load?

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Try to shoot more of the 2 3/4 dram shells if you can find them. I had a lot of stovepipes with the 2 1/4, and 2 1/2 dram loads.

 

Again... it takes time for the S20's for some reason. I wouldnt be suprised if they used the same spring as is in the S12, and that causes for harder ejection requirements.

 

Perhaps you can do that spring swap out, like was mentioned elsewhere, and try a colt 45 spring in lieu of the stock spring. That may solve your problems immediately.

 

Keep us posted bro, and good luck.

 

 

:smoke:

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I'm a couple of steps ahead of you bro. I already did that, thanks to mikey1 for sending me some springs to try. I have done more testing after replacing the forward spring with a .040 Colt spring. After doing that I did have less FTEs and no FTFs but still had some which is too many IMO. I was gonna post another sheet on that when I got time to scan it. Before trimming coils off the spring I decided to take the whole gun apart, clean the gas system completely, and do some polishing and lubing to see if that helped. After polishing the FCG and putting it all back in as well as polishing the bolt carrier and rails and lubing the piss out of it with CLP I tested it again. After that I did have less FTEs and no FTFs but still had some which is too many IMO. Anyway then I trimmed the spring back from 31 coils to 27 and retested. Still some FTEs with some of the shells but for some strange reason the Remington #6 in the green and white box worked flawlessly for two mags worth so far. Still all the rest had FTEs except the Actrive which I did not try. Then I cut the spring again back to 25 coils this time. Shot some more and still had FTEs. Then I tried the 3" magnums again and they still FTE as well. I switched the gas setting to #2 and the 3" works fine. I would not do this with my S-12 but the recoil is so much less with the 20 i don't think it will do any harm. So now I have one kind of light load that works good and don't really understand why the other 2.5 DR still wont eject. The only thing i can think of is it's the only #6 shot of the bunch. The 3" stuff works great on the light load gas setting. If I cut the spring too much more it's not going to be long enough to hold the dustcover on tight. I even tried another theory that me and Bvamp were hoping was a new breakthrough. Have you ever taken the forearm off and noticed that little hole on the left side of the gas block that you can look in and see the piston through? I tried blocking that off with a piece of tape and holding my thumb over it while firing (with a thick glove of course). Bvamp was thinking if you put a roll pin in there it would reduce the flow. Novel idea. We were hoping that would create more backpressure and solve the ejection problem. No dice. Somehow not that much gas escapes through there anyway. You can hold your bare thumb over it and fire (at least with the 20ga) and not feel much of anything escape. I'm not recomending everyone try this, just stating what I did after I noticed it didn't even blow the elec. tape off.

So there ya go, that's where I am at now on this experimental or maybe just mental journey! I hope I'm not gonna be limited to just one kind of light load I can shoot but that's better than what I had before all the tweaking so far. I wonder how much difference it's going to make after I replace the factory FCG with a G2?

Did any of you guys notice an improvement or was it worse because of the extra drag the G2 hammer causes?

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My S-20 I just traded for the VEP had a G2 from day one...that gun hardly ever had any problems. That was my duty-range-home defense-hunting gun. The hammer contact never caused problems. From what I've heard, that gun may have been an exception. As stated in the specs thread, mine is stamped full choke, but it's been cut off back to cylinder. I'm wondering if it was ported?

 

I have not shot this one yet, but it's the identical setup - minus PG conversion. I just snagged a shitload of slugs (15 rnd box for $3) X 10. I'm going to run my estates through it and if they fail, I'll go for the slugs.

 

You don't have that option because of your choke. I'd run the 3" shells on #2 - I don't think it will do any damage.

 

This current S-20's bolt doesn't lockup very good, If I don't pull it all the way to the rear, it doesn't fully close. (1/4" short) Probably just needs to break in.

 

Laughed at the combo of smilies you used! :lolol::lolol::lolol:

 

From the trouble you're having - I'd be disappointed too! Run some 3's on #2 & vent your frustration!!!!

I might just mave to go & blast with the 20 now...(my wife says thanks! :ded: )

 

Excellent post by the way...even if it's at your expense! :smoke:

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First time I took my (bone stock) 20 out, I was getting FTEs about every other round. Between the then and the next time I took it out, I cleaned it more than I've ever cleaned a shotgun and locked the bolt carrier back for the rest of the week.

The second time I used some high velocity Winchester AAHS target loads and had 1 FTE all day (150+ rounds).

 

The sad thing is, after converting the thing, I haven't had a chance to shoot the damn thing. :(

 

Keep working with it Cobra, she'll get better eventually.

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Wow...sounds like a pain. :cryss: Sounds like you've done a lot of spring work, but have you tried adding a gas port or enlarging the ones there? That seems to be the magic answer for the S12 from the readings I've done, but for some reason you've seemed hesitant to go this route. Keep up the good work and informative posts though, we all appreciate it!

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Well the first reason is it's supposed to work without any mods with enough break in time. At least that's what everyone says.

Then there's the little thing about having to press off the gas block to get to the ports. That I would like to avoid if possible.

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im pretty much in the same boat as you are Cobra. if i used the cheap "walmart" shot shells, i was pretty much doomed to be pulling an empty out of the action every time i pulled the trigger.:cryss:

so i tried the more expensive shot shells and the it barely jammed at all (but still did every so often). i was reading on this site some where, but now i cant find the post, where someone was goin through the same crap we are, and eventually fixed it by replacing the forward most recoil spring with a colt 45 spring. they even tried drilling out the ports which did nothing to help the problem.

since i read that post (about changing the spring) i went out right away and picked up the colt .45 recoil spring.............. but i havnt had a change to try it out yet being deer season here and all :chris:

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Is this the post you're talking about?

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=6828

I did the spring swap and it has helped some but I'm still getting jams with some 2.5 DR shells.

mikey1 You da man!

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Thanks pistonring. When I get pissed about something I do my best to laugh it off. If my experience so far with this damn gun doesn't show that I have patience I don't know what does.

Don't give up on the S-20 yet though, I sure haven't. Some of the guys say their's work great.

Still if I had my choice between the two it would definately be the S-12.

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I put 500 rounds through my 20 and it never got better. Supposedly the russian shells these were designed for are stronger than ours. Even when brand new I never had a problem with 2 3/4 w/ 1oz shot, but try a normal 7/8oz load...

I eventually ended up opening up the gas ports and for the first time I can fire all 5 rounds of the cheap stuff without a FTE.

 

If you don't like working on your weapon or buying expensive shells, don't buy an S20.

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Did I read this wrong, you are doing all this on gas setting #2?

Have you even tried gas setting #1?

 

Page #14 of the Saiga manual-

"Position 2 is for Magnum heavey loads; Position 1 is for non Magnum loads"

 

Kevin

My 20ga cycles 100% with any cheapo Walmart ammo I run thru it.

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Did I read this wrong, you are doing all this on gas setting #2?

Have you even tried gas setting #1?

 

Page #14 of the Saiga manual-

"Position 2 is for Magnum heavey loads; Position 1 is for non Magnum loads"

 

Kevin

My 20ga cycles 100% with any cheapo Walmart ammo I run thru it.

I believe that book has a mis-print. If you pull the plug you will see where the chamfer is. There is a thread on here somewhere. My 20's books state it exactly like yours does & my old 410 book had a sticker over the print saying the exact opposite. The 20's are 2002 and the 410 is a 2003. Unforturnately I don't have the 410 book anymore as I sold the gun. :smoke:

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Maybe they changed the guns or something. I think mine is a 2000.

 

The first time I ever shot my 20ga I was out in the woods and didn't have the manual around. I couldn't remember what number was what and the gun was having ejection problems on setting #2. So I switched it to setting #1 where it has stayed ever since. I'm put a couple hundred rounds of all kinds of ammo thru it since then without a hick-up.

 

I'd at least give setting #1 a try, it couldn't hurt.

 

Kevin

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Yeah I tried it on 1 also and had no luck. The book does have a misprint on that. The blind plug is exactly like the one on the S-12 with the bevel on the bottom when it's set on 2, thus allowing more gas flow for light loads.

 

Kevin that is strange that your's works on #1 with everything. How long is your barrel and how mnay rounds do you have thru it? Was it 100% reliable when it was new or did you get it used?

 

Another question I have for anyone out there is this:

The gas ports are drilled angled toward the rear. One reason I'm hesitant to enlarge the ports is because to get a bit in there at that angle I would have to remove the gas block first. Do the holes all have to be angled rearward in order for it to function? Could I not just enlarge the rearmost hole some by drilling from the front through the opening where the plug comes out? This would at least allow more gas to come thru. I'm planning on chopping the barrel and installing a ported polychoke so it may be necessary to enlarge the ports even if I can get it working 100% like it is now at 22.5". Perhaps Tony Rumore could chime in here?

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My gun may be a somewhat different because I bought it allready converted with a shortened 18" barrel. I'm sure the recoil spring and gas ports have been messed with. But why mine works better on setting #1 than #2 is odd.

 

Just to double check, if the "1" is closest to the detent button then you have #1 selected right?

 

Kevin

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Is this the post you're talking about?

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=6828

I did the spring swap and it has helped some but I'm still getting jams with some 2.5 DR shells.

mikey1 You da man!

 

yeah thats the post i was talking about (sorry it took so long to reply..... Gone Hunting :super: ). but now that ive read that youve tryed the spring, i hold little hope for my S-20 working with with the cheap loads. :blues:

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i'm still working with it...

 

I just got back from testing it out after removing the recoil pad and adding some white lithium grease to my already slick as snot fcg and rails. Went through 5 more rounds of the Remington 2.75" #6 that it likes and had no failures again! :super: Then I tried the Ferderal 2.75" # 7.5 that it hates and only had 1 FTE out of 5 this time! Don't give up guys, there is hope! :wub: Keep in mind too that this is the stock unconverted S-20. I have a feeling it will do better with a US made fcg and different, perhaps heavier stock, and it does appear to be getting better already.

:smoke:

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O.K. - long post warning...GOB beware!

Before I went up no'th last Friday, I had to shoot the S-20 to see how she would run compared to the old one and see how the slugs patterned. (12" group standing at 50 yards - semi-rapid fire) The sight rib doesn't allow for amazing accuracy.

 

I had a box of Federal #8 "Power Shok" 2 3/4". $3.49 Dunham's specials. First round got caught on the way out - 90 degrees in the action. Next 2 were fine & the 4th did the same, 5th was fine. :unsure: Not looking good! I finished out that box and nothing changed - about 40% didn't eject properly.

 

I loaded up and shot 45 rounds of Winchester 3/4oz slugs Super X slugs on the #2 setting out of pure anger!. :devil: They were on clearance for $3 for 15 at Meijer a little while back. I checked the rear trunion 1/2 way through 'em to make sure it was still there, because my shoulder wasn't :eek: !!!! Them sunsa bitches nailed me! I'm 6'3" & 240 lbs, but must be a pussy! They felt like my 300 mag! They also looked like that video where they flung out about 30 feet!

 

After I was done with 'em I tore her down & inspected. The gun looked to be fine shape! :smoke: Where the ejector contacts the barrel was nice & smooth. Before it would hang, but now the action locks up smooth as silk!

 

I loaded up another box of Federals and proceded to shoot. The shells went from ejecting a couple feet to the right (the ones that cleared the bolt), to about 6 - 8 feet to the right! :super: I had 2 out of the 25 not go into the chamber all the way and one of those two got caught in the action on the way out. For some reason I believe those 2 shells were misshaped as they didn't want to feed in by hand very easy. Also, it was a new box, but some of the shell heads were gold and some were nickel. (mixed batch...WTF???)

 

I usually buy Estate Brand (owned by Federal?) Heavy Game loads for a little over $3 a box at Gander. Those worked fine as expected. (2 1/2 dram, #6 - #8 shot) I plugged 3 squirrels with 'em yesterday. I finished off the box on a terrorist (snowman) my nephew made. All of 'em worked fine! :smoke:

 

This S-20 seems to be running as good as my other one did. I never cleaned between sessions either. Ride her hard and leave her dirty. :devil: She'll love you for it! :wub: Inspect frequently for damage, but don't expect to find any.

 

Again, this one is stamped full choke, but looks like it was sawed off to 19". After having similiar jamming problems with my S-410, it's seems to be a break-in thing. 120 rounds later - it seems fine!

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i finally made myself brave the sub freezing temps here in the frozen tundra of the north and ratteled off a few rounds, with my newly PG converted S-20. My buddy came home from Russia for the holidays and had an early present for me :lolol: an 8rd mag for my 20 :super::super: (ya ya chill out the rest are in the mail)

but back to the topic, i fired off a couple of mags full of slugs and the gun shot very nicly with no jams, and really no issues at all. So i figured id run some shot shells through it and see what happens. Three mags full of 2-1/2" dram low brass with only 2 FTE's (yes too many still) but way better than before. but as i was firing the shot shells the trigger started "sticking". where the "disconnect" wouldnt release and i'd have to manualy force the trigger forward, back into place. im not sure if this is just a brake-in period time situation or if somthing is not quite right with the FCG.... i suppose ill have to mess with it alittle :unsure:

if anybody has any idea's on what i should try im open to suggestions

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Hey madtdogs look real closely at the front of your trigger where it goes through hole in the receiver. It's probably hanging up right there or on the side. You need to take the trigger back out and file a little off the front of it or off the receiver till it clears. I've had to do this with all my G-2s.

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You need to take the trigger back out and file a little off the front of it or off the receiver till it clears. I've had to do this with all my G-2s.

Ditto... :smoke: I tend to forget some of the little details each time I do one.

As soon as Santa comes with my new digicam I'll be uploading a plethora of photos of all the AK builds & some other stuff me & my buddies have been doing recently. (Gun related anyway) Wouldn't want to incriminate meself! I'll get some of the lab too! :devil:

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