ec4321 113 Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) Wild. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1mA-Kk6FH4 Edited January 19, 2013 by ec4321 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) Looks like a complicated bunch of machining.It also looks huge and heavy. When I wish an american company would make a mag fed semi auto shotgun, I dream of a more streamlined design that is lighter and has less needless bulk than current imports like S12 and Adkal. Something with simple mechanics that can be made to work well consistently and be produced for a reasonable price. That guy doing the review is the same channel as the guy who drills gas ports straight and advises half the internet to do the same. (a guarantee that you are filling your gas block with crud.) Here he blames an S12's short stroke gas system for unreliability! The whole point of a short stroke gas system is to isolate the crud from the rest of the gun and reduce the tolerance requirements for the whole gun. (a tight fit is only needed in the gas block, not a good seal for most of the gas tube) If his shotguns get crud in the gas block and plug up, it ain't the gun's fault. I don't think the S12 is perfect, but this guy listed one of the primary design strengths as a weakness. That's just wrong. I don't have an opinion of fostech, but anyone who has done any reading would have good reason to doubt any reliability claims from AA. Those guys are just straight up dishonest. To me ignoring who did this, I see a bunch of good ideas that are not quite done right: (trying to be as close to objective as I can about this. The a couple points are to be read as a hypothetical conversation.) Modularity: bulk of a very large quad without a lot of rails in the right places Modularity: Interchangable barrels = they did fine here. Modularity: Takes stanard AK grips = they did fine here. Manual of arms: LRBHO = dang well better have one Manual of arms: Ambi Safety = ditto Manual of arms: Mag release = Dang well better have one- But why make it just out of reach!? a slight nubbin would have made it so that it could be reached without breaking firing grip Manual of arms: Left side charging handle: 1 good idea 2 why not ambi? 3 how about a sharp looking reciprocating one!? slight improvement where huge improvement would not have been much harder in a ground up design. Manual of arms: Magwell. ok here, but there were a ton of existing choices for mag that they could have used (030/Vepr comes to mind) Since this looks to be a fancy low production item, there will never be enough magazines. 8 rounds is a lame max. No extra credit for AA drum option. Manual of arms/ ergo: AA: A folder is always good let's use an Ace hinge type system it's proven and it works. GF, good idea, modular, proven and simple. AA: Not so fast. We are going to align the hinge way low then build up high so that other stocks on ACE pattern wouldn't be right. Also we are going to put a spur on there so that it can stab you when it is folded. GF: Bwah!??? Reiliability: Open long stroke gas system -Nope Reiliability: fragile looking carrier fortunately with aproximately 600 cuts to reproduce when it breaks. Reiliability: Fiddly looking ejection port cover just looks like a source of problems - I could be wrong. not any worse than the goofy kludge on the S12 (shutter )though. Reiliability: General good thinking with a head scratcher on execution... AA: Keep AK loose internal tolerances, but seal all the holes on the outside like an AR so that crud doesn't get in there. --GF: OK good thinking so far. Show me what you got- AA: Now let's make it a third bigger than it needs to be with each part requiring precision machining and have it designed by someone from Nerf! --GF: Sigh. Good effort. You spent how long and didn't notice . Reliability: Legendary Mythological AA service and Support. So they might say this isn't a honda accord for every man, it's a ferrarri! You can't expect it to be cheap! My response is that I would not expect ferrari to put out a car at full price and leave the design to Tonka. I'd rather put my ferrarri money into a proven build with lots of support or even a new one done by someone like JTE, R&R, Firebird, or tromix.... It would cost a lot but you would get something flawless. Edited January 19, 2013 by GunFun 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big John! 2,062 Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Gun porn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted January 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Who is AA? I think it's pretty innovative. I can't claim it's reliable or well executed yet, have to get better information from those with hands on. But you have to admit, nobody else is doing anything close to this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big John! 2,062 Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Dammit GF... You ruined the porn for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Superhawk138 202 Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) AA = Alliance Armament makers of the wraithmaker drum. Lots of bad blood on this forum from them. When Eric from the video above gets back in town I'm gonna go to his shop and talk to him about that gun. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/23155-wraithmaker/ Edited January 19, 2013 by superhawk138 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vance665 225 Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) Looks $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Edited January 19, 2013 by Vance665 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted January 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Website says $2600 bucks. There is a pre-order. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vance665 225 Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Does anyone know how you take off the "dust cover" on that thing? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Hasn't there been a "pre-order" for about 2-3yrs now? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted January 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Oh Sh*t, really? First I had ever heard of the thing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) I'm pretty sure that it's been "available for pre-order" for quite some time. I wouldn't trust them clowns to sharpen a pencil of mine. Search alliance armament on here..... Edited January 19, 2013 by Mullet Man 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Superhawk138 202 Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Does anyone know how you take off the "dust cover" on that thing? There are 2 locking tabs at the front of the cover. Cover is hinged in the rear, flips up then a pin can be pushed and the whole stock rear trunnion and dust cover slide off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmSfC4G0sT4&list=UUW76JcOhxCh2pTin_GOJ57w&index=12 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vance665 225 Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 ^ thank you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted January 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Okay wow. Video from Mid 2011 saying "The wait is almost over" Now in 2013, new video from shot show - showing a pre-production model, explaining some features will change when it goes production. Pre-order available. I am getting the picture here. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sweetcostarica 18 Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Website says $2600 bucks. Ouch Is this an over engineered Halo type design? Maybe. After reading GunFun's well thought out points there is no way I would dump $2600 hard earned dollars in a potentially unreliable design. It definitely has the looks but for me (Outdoorsman) weight and reliability are the most important. According to this video the Fostech Arms Origin 12 has had about 3,000 rounds put through it without cleaning. That's really good if true but I think I'll wait for user reviews before I sink my $$ into this one. Note: I personally don't like the magazine release being just forward of the trigger guard. I live in Alaska and if I'm wearing winter gloves it looks very possible to drop the magazine as I place my finger in the trigger guard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
setlab 11 Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 How is this topic not deleted or locked yet? Has this forum actually changed that much or has a mod just not been on in a while. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 My problem with ths gun: The name is fucking stupid. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted January 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 How exactly is Alliance Armament associated with Fostech Outdoor? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 They should have modeled it after a piece of 4"x6" lumber.... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted January 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 (edited) They didn't?!?? Edited January 20, 2013 by ec4321 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HB of CJ 1,263 Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 WOW! Also...is it my imagination or is the selector backwards from an AK? HB of CJ (old coot) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 They didn't?!?? Sarcasm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 This gun is missing something.......................it is begging for one of these badboys. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted January 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 The non-milled lower looks out of place. Everything else is milled/milled style. Should have just gone all the way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stansplace 414 Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Just finished fondling my S-12 and came here and saw that fugly piece of poo. Made me throw up in my mouth a little........ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 This gun is missing something.......................it is begging for one of these badboys. Did you get that pic from the AA website? They did use to have one there. It just needed a big logo on the front and maybe a chunk of diamondplate to finish it off. Again- I have been wanting some american company to jump on and build a modern mag fed shotgun from the ground up for a while now. It is a shame that these guys seem to be the first to get one marketed. Well not quite the first. I've heard that a couple other companys have gotten demo models to shot show before, but never went to production. Maybe Keltec will be the company to step up. Whatever you think of the company, they don't seem to be strangled by an unnecessary attatchment to convention. The old guard need some fresh ideas too if they want to keep marketshare. Ruger won't sell a part unless it has been universally adopted as aftermarket for 30 years. Colt has army as a customer, so they won't sell an upgrade until the army buys it. S&W wants to shrivel and die slowly while making wheel guns. Remington wants to tell you nothing can be improved cause they got it all worked out before your dad was born. However they apparently have made a pretty reliable gas system that adapts to a wide array of ammo without constant maintanence. But hey- whichever steps up, I would love to see it. I would like to see a fully ambidextrous shotgun that is semi auto and takes box magazines. It should be light weight, simple and feed at least 3 dram to full house 3" without mods (auto regulating short gas preferred, but "inertial "blow back is ok if it works). It should have: standard thread detachable chokes external threads on the barrel over the choke area rail estate on the top in sensible places controls where you can reach them without moving. cocking can be non recip ambi slider with a handle on either side up front. reasonable with recoil weigh 8 lbs or less. I don't care if there is a lot of plastic there as long as it is tough plastic. I don't really like glocky DA triggers, but I could live with it. And now for the part where people will disagree. . . it should be bull pup and eject in some way that is not inconvenient for leftists. Drums are ok too, but decent stick mags that are fast to change are better. if it were my company I would make a contract with Mike D to be OEM doublestack supplier, and specify that any one can make a mag to fit it open source license. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted January 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 I will buy your product GF. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 Overall it is pretty cool. Look how the stock is completely above the trunnion, so that it is parallel with the bore axis just like an AR. Weird that they have a sharp point facing rearward when folded like GunFun said, but that may just be a prototype detail that was done for looks. Also, they could get rid of that airsoft quad rail forearm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted January 20, 2013 Report Share Posted January 20, 2013 you should have seen the quad they were selling for over $300 for the S12. When I first saw it, I thought it was a joke like the ninja glock. I didn't know it was a real product. I still can't see how anyone could make that and think it was a better way to hold a gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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