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Vepr 12 stove piping: remington sureshot 1 1/8oz 7 1/2 heavy dove + SG


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With 12 rnd SGM mag.

I can't get through four rounds without a stovepipe. The ejection pattern is also to about 12:30. This seems to indicate to me that the bolt carrier is not traveling rearward fast/far enough to properly eject spent shells.

I tried firing with the top cover open to see if friction from the front rivet was responsible, but I still got stovepipes.

 

Any ideas?

Edited by Aries144
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Thanks for the advice. I guess I could give the winchester 100rnd value box a shot.

I'm not willing to go on an extensive ammo hunt to 'find what it likes' though. It's got to shoot cheap and what's available locally or it's useless to me.

Any other suggestions on cheap birdshot that's worked for others or things to tweak?

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1) Do you have any issues with the factory mag, same ammo, same gun?

 

2) Remove the bolt carrier. Insert the SGM Mag. Depress the follower. Note if it returns to top freely.

 

3) Pull back on the bottom of the SGM mag towards the rear of the firearm. Pull back pretty hard with one hand. Now depress the follower with the other repeatedly. Does this cause the follower to stick more than it does when the mag hangs freely?

 

4) Repeat, but this time push the bottom of the magazine forward towards the front of the gun.

 

I have the same issue with an SGM in one of my veprs. Whether or not it is the same cause, I don't know - but those tests should tell you something.

 

You can also do live fires like this. Pull back on the bottom of the mag while your fire, if you get alot of FTEs or FTFs when you do this compared to letting it hang free - maybe the same issue.

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The factory 5 rounder seems to work. At least, it has not failed in about 45 rounds. It does have pretty weak looking ejection though, throwing shells to about 12:30. I think it'll only be a matter of time before I got a stove pipe.

The 12 rounder worked with this ammo without an issue the first time it was used and has caused malfunctions every time since. Some mods were made to this mag, but they were made before firing with it for the first time and consisted of rounding the tops of the outside feedlip edges to keep the mag from getting caught on the receiver opening in the magwell and filing the bottom of the rear tab slightly to allow the mag to lock up without as much wiggling.

The SGM mag's follower returns to top easily when in the weapon with bolt assembly removed, even when pushing forward or pulling rearward strongly on the bottom of the mag.

I tried disassembling and polishing all the contacting areas between the front half of the bolt and the rear half of the bolt with some 2000 grit sandpaper, but didn't notice any difference today when firing. I also used the sandpaper to polish a ridge-like burr on the rear of the front half of the bolt that showed signs of catching on cartridge rims, but again it had no noticeable effect today when shooting.

The shells are Remington Shurshot Heavy Dove, 2 3/4", 1255 velocity, 1 1/8th oz 7 1/2 shot. They were more expensive by a buck or so than the 100rnd winchester value box and this type always ran better in my 20ga Saiga, though I know that may not apply with a different gauge.

Also, I just swapped out the front recoil spring with a 'lighter' spring I bought a couple of years ago for my S20. All rounds ejected using the SGM mag using this spring. This seems to confirm to me that the SGM mag is causing additional drag on the bolt assembly.

 

I think my Vepr is short stroking with the stock spring, SGM 12 round mag, and this ammo. I think the bolt assembly is going just far enough rearward to barely tap the shell rim against the ejector (loosing it from the extractor) and strip a round from the magazine, but not far enough to eject the spent case with nearly enough force. I think the shell casings being thrown almost directly forward are the result of the bolt assembly returning forward too soon, i.e. it isn't traveling all the way to the rear of the receiver or is just not ejecting the shell, and is 'pushing' the loose shell case forward out of the gun, sometimes resulting in a stove pipe type malfunction.

Edited by Aries144
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I would have tried it with full power loads before I swapped the spring, or at least try some other ammo. Id also give the mag some time to break in. More than likely its the ammo. But its hard to say since you havent run a different brand through it. Mine has weak ejection on the low brass shells, but slings the hulls with full power shells, so I feel its normal for weak ejection on shit ammo.

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Just got in one last magazine worth with the lighter spring: The 12 round mag worked without issue, ejecting to about 2:00 instead of 12:30.

 

 

Shooting with #4 steel shot slung the hulls a few feet to 3:00 or so with the stock spring, though I haven't put more than four or so rounds through.

 

 

 

 

Maybe I could try exercising the mag spring with a ruler or something? I've noticed most mag springs tend to loose a little tension and length after a few cycles.

Edited by Aries144
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I'm having the same issue with the factory mag and Estate clay shot. Bone stock gun. The carrier isn't traveling back far enough or is going too fast and will strip and chamber the next round but the case get caught. Sometimes though it will run the whole 5 rounds with no issue then hang up every second round.

 

I haven't spent any time trying to figure it out yet. Just an observation in the first 60rnds.

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I'm having the same issue with the factory mag and Estate clay shot. Bone stock gun. The carrier isn't traveling back far enough or is going too fast and will strip and chamber the next round but the case get caught. Sometimes though it will run the whole 5 rounds with no issue then hang up every second round.

 

I haven't spent any time trying to figure it out yet. Just an observation in the first 60rnds.

Through my first 250-300 rounds I had many fail to feeds. Then it seemed to smooth out. I have since had 0 issues with the factory mags. The SGMs still seem to need some breaking in/testing.

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I'm having the same issue with the factory mag and Estate clay shot. Bone stock gun. The carrier isn't traveling back far enough or is going too fast and will strip and chamber the next round but the case get caught. Sometimes though it will run the whole 5 rounds with no issue then hang up every second round.

 

I haven't spent any time trying to figure it out yet. Just an observation in the first 60rnds.

Through my first 250-300 rounds I had many fail to feeds. Then it seemed to smooth out. I have since had 0 issues with the factory mags. The SGMs still seem to need some breaking in/testing.

Im not having failure to feed's. Failure to clear the extracted case. FWIW, it happens with all ammo so far. The SGM mag is sitting in a drawer for now. I'm less than impressed with it so far

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I'm having the same issue with the factory mag and Estate clay shot. Bone stock gun. The carrier isn't traveling back far enough or is going too fast and will strip and chamber the next round but the case get caught. Sometimes though it will run the whole 5 rounds with no issue then hang up every second round.

 

I haven't spent any time trying to figure it out yet. Just an observation in the first 60rnds.

Through my first 250-300 rounds I had many fail to feeds. Then it seemed to smooth out. I have since had 0 issues with the factory mags. The SGMs still seem to need some breaking in/testing.

Im not having failure to feed's. Failure to clear the extracted case. FWIW, it happens with all ammo so far. The SGM mag is sitting in a drawer for now. I'm less than impressed with it so far

Sorry, I had fte too. Was pretty random. I left that out I guess. I cant say thats it. But an idea. Keep testing. The gun seems to have a break in period is what im getting at. So do the SGM mags because all the guns vary in tolerances.

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Yeah, I can see where the stovepipe could be mistaken for a failure to feed. On my example, there's usually a shell popped out of the mag caught underneath the stove piped case. (Edit to clarify: but the round WOULD have loaded if the stove piped case weren't blocking it)

 

I'm kind of irritated since I broke the piggy bank for this shotgun (over getting in on the Tavor) for use in 3-gun specifically because I saw how well it seemed to do running cheap birdshot, buck, and slugs without adjustment in the Military Arms Channel review and in a few others as well. I bought the whole "auto-adjusting" gas system bit too. :\

 

I'm starting to wonder if I wouldn't have come out ahead just getting a Saiga 12, drilling the ports, installing a multi position gas adjustment, and adding a magwell. I really hate that I have to put a lighter spring in to get it to run with 7 1/2 shot, since that means I'm going to be hammering the hell out of it (not to mention my shoulder) when I have to transition to slug targets during a match.

Edited by Aries144
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Aries -

 

I have one that runs 7.5 all day no issues. Factory Mag or SGM Mag.

 

I have another that will with Factory Mag but not SGM Mag.

 

How does your do with the Factory Mag?

 

I think you indicated it works fine. If that's the case - why would you be talking about a lighter spring?

Edited by ec4321
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I think you need to slow down and do more testing. Dont get frustrated so quickly. Its likely a minor set back or issue. If one at all. Like I said, the guns seem to have a short break in period. It may very well just need to be run a bit. Try with different mags as suggested.

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With 12 rnd SGM mag.

 

I can't get through four rounds without a stovepipe. The ejection pattern is also to about 12:30. This seems to indicate to me that the bolt carrier is not traveling rearward fast/far enough to properly eject spent shells.

 

I tried firing with the top cover open to see if friction from the front rivet was responsible, but I still got stovepipes.

 

Any ideas?

Cutting 12s down to 8s and leaving the spring length the same works for me.

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If you're going to go with 8rds, I would seriously consider getting the russian ones.

 

The Russian 5rds don't have the same issues as the SGMs have in terms of deforming in certain Veprs, etc.

 

Anything above 8rds, and your only option is SGM for now.

 

I have a friend that bought four russian 8rders for his vepr. He's happy.

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If you're going to go with 8rds, I would seriously consider getting the russian ones.

 

The Russian 5rds don't have the same issues as the SGMs have in terms of deforming in certain Veprs, etc.

 

Anything above 8rds, and your only option is SGM for now.

 

I have a friend that bought four russian 8rders for his vepr. He's happy.

 

Are the Russian 8s he bought Izzy or Molot and from where did he get them?

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Thanks for your input guys.

 

To clarify, the five round factory mag works okay with birdshot and the stock spring, but I get stovepipe malfunctions with the SGM 12 round.

 

I tried a reduced power recoil spring in conjunction with the SGM 12 round mag and that works, but won't be optimal since I need to be able to shoot a bunch of birdshot, change to slugs real quick by changing mags, and then change mags again to go back to shooting birdshot (3-gun). I don't feel comfortable shooting slugs with the reduced power recoil spring in place, so I need to get it running both birdshot and slugs with the factory springs and the SGM 12 round mags.

I'm going to keep looking at it and spend some time exercising the springs and polishing a few contact points. If the springs just need to settle in or working parts needs to smooth out, I should know in the next 150 rounds or so.

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Guys,

I didn't see anyone question whether they were using Optics mounted on the rail or not and if so in what position.

If you watch this video, I believe it's about 16 minutes into it where he shows an issue with mounting the optic forward vs in the rearward position on the rail.

By the way, he was very complimentary of the VEPR 12

I had the same experience mentioned in the video and when I moved my optic rearward it was no issue whatsoever.

I was using Winchester SuperX 2-3/4" 1600 velocity 1oz hollow point rifled slugs and 00 Buckshot rounds and still noticed this issue.

Just a thought...

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If you mean me, I don't have any optics mounted.

 

I ran some Winchester Super X 3" 15 pellet 00 buck today- four rounds was enough to make me decide not to shoot anymore until I get an extra gas puck to dremel some gas relief notches in and a recoil pad for the stock, or at least a stock without sharp corners. I shot a 5 lb 45/70 break-action rifle with hot handloads immediately before, and the 3" 00 buck in the VEPR was brutal even compared to that. I'm not sure how, but every shot made my right palm sting (I'm right handed).

I also tried some of the Estate 1oz 7 1/2 birdshot, which seemed to cycle better than the Remington Shurshot 7 1/2 gas-wise, but had some frequent trouble getting the fronts of the shells caught and deformed on the edge of the chamber mouth while feeding. The Estate shells have a 'lip' protruding forward around the crimp that I've never seen on a shotshell before. Retracting the bolt part-way and releasing was enough to chamber the stuck shell and continue. I think some polishing/rounding off of sharp edges around the chamber area might help this issue.

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The theory is that anything with less power will require a more proper and rigid stance to avoid robbing any energy from the carrier during cycling. The lowest FPS on the WPA site shows 1145 so this should be a suitable round for cycling. Check here for more compatible rounds for cycling.

 

http://www.wolfammo.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4&Itemid=15

 

I'm very curious if running a recoil buffer with a low recoil spring will allow shooting of both birdshot and slugs.

Edited by DresNightfire
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Thanks for the link, but I'm not convinced that ammo list has anything to do with what ammunition may or may not be recommended for use with the Vepr 12. It looks more like a list of ammunition that Wolf imports.

 

The problem with recoil buffers is that they really don't address many of the stresses increased by using 'hotter' ammunition- increased stresses on the oprod and mating carrier extension and increased stress on the bolt and trunnion during unlocking, for instance. Further, unless the weapon was designed with use of a buffer in mind, the buffer may change the action cycle timing in a way that causes malfunctions. i.e. the bolt can't travel quite as far rearward, 'bounces' off of the buffer, and returns forward with more velocity, all of which mean it returns forward sooner in the cycle, which might lead to bolt-over malfunctions (where the bolt beats the magazine spring in the race between the bolt and the top round in the mag).

 

The best way to deal with differences in cycling energy on the moving parts is to adjust the amount of energy acting on those moving parts to begin with- in the case of a gas operated arm, using an adjustable or self adjusting gas system (if any such thing really exists).

I'm convinced that in this case, since we can't make adjustments to the gas system and since we were lied to about the gas system being 'self adjusting,' the easiest way to mitigate excessive wear on the moving parts would be to have a second, modified, gas puck on hand that would allow some blow by to reduce the amount of energy being harnessed to drive the moving parts when magnum type ammunition is used.

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Problem is (tentatively) solved.

 

I noticed some stiff resistance when pulling back on the bolt where it cocks the hammer. Upon further examination I found that most of this resistance was coming from the hammer having to push with quite a bit of force to get past the disconnector on its way to latching on the trigger/sear. No other AK I've handled has this much resistance from the disconnector on the hammer.

I then noticed this resistance happens just before the bolt reaches the ejector on its rearward path. All of this extra resistance was being encountered 1/8th inch before ejection!

I replaced the trigger parts with some spare AK trigger parts I had in a parts bin, profiled and polished the trigger/sear like the pictures of the Vepr 12 competition FCG I've seen on this forum, and then shaped and polished the rear of the hammer and the face of the disconnector with file and sandpaper to almost eliminate the cocking resistance from the disconnector.

Now the shotgun ejects birdshot perfectly with the factory spring!

 

I went further and polished the top and bottom of the chamber mouth with dremel polishing tip (the bullet-shaped one) and jeweler's rouge. Eliminating the sharp corners and burrs here seems to have enabled the cheap Estate birdshot with the funny rolled crimp to feed without getting jammed up on the breach face, like it used to.

Two problems solved with some reprofiling and polish. We'll see how it works over the long term.

I'm excited!

Edited by Aries144
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