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s2thalayer

My first AK build...questions. (welding)

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Yes, I've used to search function a million times and have been researching.

 

After all the researching I have done, I'm fairly certain I've settled on welding. I simply do not have the knowledge, nor the tools to rivet. I have no access to a press, nor anyone around who does any gunsmithing at all to help me out. I have no jigs, and would have to do some heavy researching to understand the principle of them. I also am very low on money as I bought 3 kits, a Bulgy 74, Hungarian AMD 65, and an Egyptian Maadi, and 3 blank receivers. I have been working Construction since about age 15 though, so I have a lot of tools and knowledge on building things all around. I've done several Saigas also, so I get how an AK works and what needs to be done. I could modify bolt cutters, but I bought the kits with barrels installed, and that would be another thing I would have to learn how to do as far as removing and installing a barrel.

 

So, from what I have seen, welding will be the quickest, cheapest, and in my opinion the best cosmetic looking rifle. One problem: I have never welded before ever. I do have a lot of friends around that DO weld, so that's the one thing that I could possibly get help with. I found a 90 amp flux welder for under $100 at Harbor Freight that has great reviews. But I can't get a straight answer from anyone about whether I should/could use that to weld this build. Of course, I would need to practice a lot before application, but I have a lot of scraps around I can work with. My friend says that basically it might not look pretty, and i'll get splatter but it should work. But I'm counting on a file and some dremeling could pretty up a weld...it's going to be filed down flat and painted anyway.

 

So, the question, can I use a flux welder and have a safe rifle? I hear it's also a good all around welder that I can use for other things as well. I can get a MIG for a little more. My friend told me a TIG isn't necessary. Also, does anyone know of any good sort of welding tutorials for plug welding an AK together? Once again, I've already searched, just want to know if anyone with real knowledge knows what a good tutorial is that people might tend to use. Please don't recommend screws or rivets. I've done my research, and if you're not telling me I can rivet without a press or a jig and can just use a vice and a hammer, I've heard it before. I do wonder though, would welding a rivet in place without crushing it be helpful...or just plug welding it be acceptable? I know nothing about welding, so be easy. haha.

 

Thanks for your help in advance.

 

 

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I just recently built a maadi kit for the first time and i did all my riveting with a hammer and a big bolt and a metal plate and it turned out great i also installed the barrel,rear sight block,gas block,front sight block with a hammer and that turned out great. you will get allot of people telling you what you can and cant do but theirs allot of ways to do things.i think your welding idea will work just practice first and if the welder is from harbor freight and it dosen't get the job done just take it back no questions ask.

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Would love to hear more in detail how you managed to rivet like that. If it can be done and look right and efficiently, I have 3 kits to do that I would like to put out quickly, so that would definitely work.

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You still need to press the barrel in and out of the front trunnion to do a rivet build.

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First off i would NOT suggest welding on your receiver if you do not have experience welding already. I have a Lincoln flux core wire welder and it does produce a LOT of spatter. The best solution is to cover as much of the areas around where you are welding with pieces of metal, and WD-40 helps to keep the spatter from sticking a little. The cheaper ones like harbor freight have inferior wire feeders that do not run at real constant speed, they tend to surge making it more difficult to get a good weld. Honestly I did not weld mine even though I have welded a lot I used a Tromix DIY trigger guard and plugs in the rear holes. If you are not an experienced welder and you want it welded I would take it to someone preferably with a TIG welder.

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i can take some pictures of the crude tools i made to hammer the rivets i can put them up tomorrow . i did make a bolt cutter rivet tool for the front trunnion but since the barrel is already installed i have read on many different sites that you can hammer the rivets in until they smash against the barrel when its already installed in the trunnion.I know allot of people don't believe in building them like this but think about it these guns weren't made very precise to begin with that's the point of them.buy the way if you felt like three kits were to much you could sell me one!

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We once had a member use the pay air compressor at a 7-11 to rivet his gun before...

gallery_13865_555_6312.jpg

 

I weld a lot of things, but rivets are the tried and true for trunnions...

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i can take some pictures of the crude tools i made to hammer the rivets i can put them up tomorrow . i did make a bolt cutter rivet tool for the front trunnion but since the barrel is already installed i have read on many different sites that you can hammer the rivets in until they smash against the barrel when its already installed in the trunnion.I know allot of people don't believe in building them like this but think about it these guns weren't made very precise to begin with that's the point of them.buy the way if you felt like three kits were to much you could sell me one!

 

Sounds good man. Haha, will do. I think I can probably handle the three of em, but if not, they'll definitely hit the classifieds. haha.

First off i would NOT suggest welding on your receiver if you do not have experience welding already. I have a Lincoln flux core wire welder and it does produce a LOT of spatter. The best solution is to cover as much of the areas around where you are welding with pieces of metal, and WD-40 helps to keep the spatter from sticking a little. The cheaper ones like harbor freight have inferior wire feeders that do not run at real constant speed, they tend to surge making it more difficult to get a good weld. Honestly I did not weld mine even though I have welded a lot I used a Tromix DIY trigger guard and plugs in the rear holes. If you are not an experienced welder and you want it welded I would take it to someone preferably with a TIG welder.

Well, the difference here like I said is I have welder friends, and worst comes to worst I can take it to some of guys I sub welding out to pretty often and probably get a good deal. Rivets on the other hand, I'd be on my own other than forum advice. There are no reputable machine shops around here if any at all, so I wouldn't have a backup plan either.

 

I have heard about the splattering issue, and strangely enough, someone told me to spray "Pam" on the receiver...yeah...the cooking spray. And that that keeps the splatter from sticking. But I suspect it's the same as what you're saying.

 

Actually, I think I'll take your advice. Might head out to my welder and ask him to quote it. I'm thinking it would be, what, about 6 welds a piece to get the trunnions right? I can't imagine 18 plug welds being expensive to get a professional to do. Any idea if welders typically have an issue working on rifles? I always thought liability would come into play.

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I saw some "Khyber Pass" AK's in combat........

 

Weld away my Son....weld away......it's just an AK!

 

rolleyes.gif

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I saw some "Khyber Pass" AK's in combat........

 

Weld away my Son....weld away......it's just an AK!

 

rolleyes.gif

Indeed, I only digress as we have had people come back with cracked receivers from welding trunnions. some areas on the gun were made to have a little bit of flex or wiggle.

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I saw some "Khyber Pass" AK's in combat........

 

Weld away my Son....weld away......it's just an AK!

 

rolleyes.gif

Indeed, I only digress as we have had people come back with cracked receivers from welding trunnions. some areas on the gun were made to have a little bit of flex or wiggle.

Well, we are talking a rifle here that will never see full auto, and out of the 10 or so rifles I have, I can't say I believe any of them have hit 1000 rounds yet. Probably only a couple are past 500.

 

Don't know if that makes a difference.

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Please don't recommend screws or rivets.

 

Okay. I recommend selling your kits to somebody who will not butcher them up with welding or screws.

 

I've done my research, and if you're not telling me I can rivet without a press or a jig and can just use a vice and a hammer, I've heard it before.

 

I use a vise, a hammer (an air hammer), and a couple of ground down bolts.

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I've done my research, and if you're not telling me I can rivet without a press or a jig and can just use a vice and a hammer, I've heard it before.

 

 

I use a vise, a hammer (an air hammer), and a couple of ground down bolts.

What are the bolts for? can it be done with the barrel still attached?

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this is a S-12 thread, but addresses a lot of the issues you may want to look into.

 

For example Pauley explaining the trunnion and receiver metals are different.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/66017-i-cracked-my-s12-recieverpics/

 

I would read that and form a opinion after.

So from what I read there, make sure the heat treating is done right, and do my research about how different metals react and make sure I'm not getting anything too hot. If I'm not confident in that, take it to a pro, which is likely. haha.

 

Also maybe considering at least riveting the rear trunnion, if nothing else. If I can figure out how to rivet everything without removing the barrel or using a press, after reading that post, I'd really rather go that route. After doing a lot of googling for about a month though, I'm still not all the keen on how riveting works. I get that you are putting enough pressure on the rivet to make the head flush with the receiver, and the other side crush flush with the other side of the receiver. Simple enough. But using a hammer or air hammer to flatten the rivets...what makes the other side crush flush? I can't imagine you put a piece of metal on the other side, because then the head of the rivet would just bend like a nail. How do you manage that? And if I go with that, each rivet CAN be done with a hammer and a modified punch...even with the barrel on?

Edited by s2thalayer

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to use bolts and a hammer to rivet is simple. you find a large bolt or steel rod about a 1/2 inch across or bigger then take one of the rivets and match a drill bit to the same size as the rivet head then drill the end of the bolt/rod. then i use a dremmel to shape the hole so when you rivet it turns out nice and round. you don't want the whole rivet head to disappear into the hole you drilled you want just a little bit of the head showing.then what i do is grind the bottom of the bolt at an angle away from the rivet head hole i drilled.then i use steel plates that i set under the receiver that have holes in them just like the bolt.i use the plate and bolt for the rear trunnion/support rivet and trigger guard.you could probably use this setup for riveting some of the front trunnion with the barrel installed but the to back rivets on the front trunnion have to be crushed with a modified bolt cutter/rivet tool.any way you do it it will most likely work fine.

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to use bolts and a hammer to rivet is simple. you find a large bolt or steel rod about a 1/2 inch across or bigger then take one of the rivets and match a drill bit to the same size as the rivet head then drill the end of the bolt/rod. then i use a dremmel to shape the hole so when you rivet it turns out nice and round. you don't want the whole rivet head to disappear into the hole you drilled you want just a little bit of the head showing.then what i do is grind the bottom of the bolt at an angle away from the rivet head hole i drilled.then i use steel plates that i set under the receiver that have holes in them just like the bolt.i use the plate and bolt for the rear trunnion/support rivet and trigger guard.you could probably use this setup for riveting some of the front trunnion with the barrel installed but the to back rivets on the front trunnion have to be crushed with a modified bolt cutter/rivet tool.any way you do it it will most likely work fine.

 

Ah, so you're using the bolt as a makeshift punch. Figured that. What's the angle grinded on the bottom for? You're saying to drill an angle away from the concave spot you modified for the rivet head? Then the steel plate under it, you need some clearance for the rivet to crush though, right? The way I understood it was the rivet head needed to be flush with the receiver when crushing the rivets. Is that not so with a hammer? Thanks a lot for your help.

 

Also, I'm looking on the HF site, and wondering what would be better for this...an impact hammer with chisels, or a "1/4 inch air hydraulic riveter"

Edited by s2thalayer

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I think what red 308 is describing is making a depression in one bolt to fit the round head that is already on one end of the rivet. This will be on the outside of the receiver and the angle away from the hole is a chamfer on the diameter to prevent the bolt from leaving a mark on the outside of the receiver. This bolt is often clamped in a vice with the rivet in the receiver resting on top, then the other bolt is used as a punch to mash the part of the rivet extending inside the receiver. If you are goping to this extent you might also want to consider having the gun blasted and refinished.

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Augh..... Google "pokie rivet tool"

Go to harbor frieght and buy a 24" bolt cutter and grind the jaws to make a rivet crusher..... Simple, easy and will last you through all your builds.



removing the barrel from the trunion I use a ball joint puller. cheap tool for reinstalling the barrel is a piece of all thread, washers and nuts.

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I think what red 308 is describing is making a depression in one bolt to fit the round head that is already on one end of the rivet. This will be on the outside of the receiver and the angle away from the hole is a chamfer on the diameter to prevent the bolt from leaving a mark on the outside of the receiver. This bolt is often clamped in a vice with the rivet in the receiver resting on top, then the other bolt is used as a punch to mash the part of the rivet extending inside the receiver. If you are goping to this extent you might also want to consider having the gun blasted and refinished.

AH! I get it now! Haha. Trying to visualize all this without having any rivets or parts in my hands. I get exactly what you guys are saying now. The only rivets you can't get to from both sides of the receiver are going to be the front trunnion, which is where the bolt cutters come in, which would require barrel removal. If I have to do that, I guess I'll just have to, but would just plug welding that be an option? Most of the welding complaints I hear have to do with the rear trunnion, not the front. As for refinishing, the receiver is a blank, not heat treated or anything...so it's gotta be finished anyway.

 

Does anyone have any issues with what red308 was saying about smashing rivets against the barrel that is already pressed? That wouldn't cause headspacing issues or any significant change in accuracy?

 

Thank you guys so much for the help. At this point I'm fairly certain I'm going to rivet most of the rifle if not all of it.

 

Something else I was thinking about earlier...does everyone weld their guide rails, or do some rivet those as well? Could something like that or the mag catch/trigger guard use soft rivets rather than steel? I can't imagine they would be under nearly the stress the others would be. That's more of just a curious question.

Edited by s2thalayer

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Augh..... Google "pokie rivet tool"

Go to harbor frieght and buy a 24" bolt cutter and grind the jaws to make a rivet crusher..... Simple, easy and will last you through all your builds.

 

removing the barrel from the trunion I use a ball joint puller. cheap tool for reinstalling the barrel is a piece of all thread, washers and nuts.

so removing the barrel is something anyone could do with a couple cheap tools? No need for a press or a lathe?

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Only reason I ever bought a press was for bending flats. I never used it for pulling a barrel from a trunion ever.

I did eventually make a jig to hold the receiver with trunion installed so I could use the press to rebarrel. But for atleast 4 builds I used all thread to reinstall.

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What are the bolts for? can it be done with the barrel still attached?

 

The bolts are used as bucking bars. I use an aircraft 3x rivet gun (a fancy air hammer with a more controllable trigger) with an AN430 rivet set (available from US Tool for a few bucks) on the outer, round head of the rivets. The inner (aka the "shop" head) head of the rivet is what is actually formed when riveting, against the bolt clamped in a vise to give backing to the whole process. Grind bolt heads as needed in order to reach what you need to. I will try to remember to post pictures of my bolts in a couple of days. The trigger guard rivets are kind of a booger. I use a jig in my press, which works sort of OK, but others use the air hammer with a special modified rivet set that is ground on one side for clearance, which seems to work as well or better. I may do that instead, next time around.

 

Be advised that the air hammer method takes some practice and still. I'm an aircraft mechanic, and the rivet hammer is one of the tools of my trade, so I know how to use it. You will want to get plenty of extra rivets, and practice riveting scrap steel together first. No matter what method you use.

 

You still need to pull the barrel. I use my press, but others have used ball joint pullers, etc. with success. Hardest part of the process is often getting the barrel pin out first. Anybody who says you can rivet the front trunnion with the barrel in place is recommending a substandard practice. You have no way of knowing that the inner head of the rivet was formed correctly, and there are plenty of ways it can go wrong. And it's a lot easier to locate and drill the holes in the receiver in the first place, with the barrel removed.

 

Getting the barrel back in is more difficult. The best way is with a press and a special jig that supports the trunnion (do not try to use the receiver as support, you will screw it up). In the past, I have been known to screw a thread protector (blank firing device, etc) in place on the end of the barrel, and beat it in with a big lead hammer. I made the hammer by pouring an empty soda can full of lead, drilling a hole through the middle, and installing a handle. Fit of the barrel to the trunnion is more important using this method; a press can usually horse it back in, but using the hammer method, I've sometimes had to hone the trunnion slightly for a better fit, and it's still sometimes a struggle. Don't hone too much.

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I think what red 308 is describing is making a depression in one bolt to fit the round head that is already on one end of the rivet. This will be on the outside of the receiver and the angle away from the hole is a chamfer on the diameter to prevent the bolt from leaving a mark on the outside of the receiver. This bolt is often clamped in a vice with the rivet in the receiver resting on top, then the other bolt is used as a punch to mash the part of the rivet extending inside the receiver. If you are goping to this extent you might also want to consider having the gun blasted and refinished.

mister t described exactly what i was trying to say

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here's the only tools i used minus dremmel and bench vise to rivet and install both trunnions,barrel,front sight block,rear sight block and gas block the plate with four holes was for the trigger guard and this is the gun i built. by the way ignore the fsb long story.

post-44196-0-94933900-1358900567_thumb.jpg

post-44196-0-10774500-1358900659_thumb.jpg

post-44196-0-04158700-1358900680_thumb.jpg

post-44196-0-08323900-1358900711_thumb.jpg

post-44196-0-31280100-1358900732_thumb.jpg

post-44196-0-97303800-1358900790_thumb.jpg

post-44196-0-14473100-1358900796_thumb.jpg

Edited by red308

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What are the bolts for? can it be done with the barrel still attached?

 

 

The bolts are used as bucking bars. I use an aircraft 3x rivet gun (a fancy air hammer with a more controllable trigger) with an AN430 rivet set (available from US Tool for a few bucks) on the outer, round head of the rivets. The inner (aka the "shop" head) head of the rivet is what is actually formed when riveting, against the bolt clamped in a vise to give backing to the whole process. Grind bolt heads as needed in order to reach what you need to. I will try to remember to post pictures of my bolts in a couple of days. The trigger guard rivets are kind of a booger. I use a jig in my press, which works sort of OK, but others use the air hammer with a special modified rivet set that is ground on one side for clearance, which seems to work as well or better. I may do that instead, next time around.

 

Be advised that the air hammer method takes some practice and still. I'm an aircraft mechanic, and the rivet hammer is one of the tools of my trade, so I know how to use it. You will want to get plenty of extra rivets, and practice riveting scrap steel together first. No matter what method you use.

 

You still need to pull the barrel. I use my press, but others have used ball joint pullers, etc. with success. Hardest part of the process is often getting the barrel pin out first. Anybody who says you can rivet the front trunnion with the barrel in place is recommending a substandard practice. You have no way of knowing that the inner head of the rivet was formed correctly, and there are plenty of ways it can go wrong. And it's a lot easier to locate and drill the holes in the receiver in the first place, with the barrel removed.

 

Getting the barrel back in is more difficult. The best way is with a press and a special jig that supports the trunnion (do not try to use the receiver as support, you will screw it up). In the past, I have been known to screw a thread protector (blank firing device, etc) in place on the end of the barrel, and beat it in with a big lead hammer. I made the hammer by pouring an empty soda can full of lead, drilling a hole through the middle, and installing a handle. Fit of the barrel to the trunnion is more important using this method; a press can usually horse it back in, but using the hammer method, I've sometimes had to hone the trunnion slightly for a better fit, and it's still sometimes a struggle. Don't hone too much.

Thanks, I think I understand the concept of riveting pretty well now. You're actually putting force on the side of the rivet that DOESNT originally have the head if I've got it right.

 

I think I'm pretty certain on just using screws for the trigger guard, as that's what is used on a Saiga, and I would guess if it's acceptable there, it's acceptable for this as well. If they are fine there, I would also guess they are probably fine for the mag catch. If they aren't I can always fix it later, as those two things are not dangerous like the trunnions could be. I am fairly certain I will only rivet the trunnions.

 

Also, do you think a welding job could be a success if JUST plug welding the front trunnion, and riveting the rear? Or maybe something makeshift like welding in the rivets? I'm really dreading barrel removal, but I'll do it if all the other ways are irrational.

 

Thanks for the pics, I'll definitely use these as a reference tomorrow when I make these tools.

Edited by s2thalayer

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I would not weld on the trunnion at all, you may fuck the heat treatment on one of the only high stress areas of the AK design. The great thing about rivets, is that when driven they not only contract in length; they expand in diameter, which takes up any slack in the holes. Within reason, of course. You will never get that sort of fit with a screw build, and welding it you will never be sure what you have gotten, not only because if heat treatment issues, but also because you can't inspect the back of the weld. Unless you pull the barrel, in which case you should be using rivets anyway.



by the way ignore the fsb long story.

 

I don't care who you are, that there is funny.

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I would not weld on the trunnion at all, you may fuck the heat treatment on one of the only high stress areas of the AK design. The great thing about rivets, is that when driven they not only contract in length; they expand in diameter, which takes up any slack in the holes. Within reason, of course. You will never get that sort of fit with a screw build, and welding it you will never be sure what you have gotten, not only because if heat treatment issues, but also because you can't inspect the back of the weld. Unless you pull the barrel, in which case you should be using rivets anyway.

Right. So basically, if the welding isn't done professionally, don't do it at all...and even if it is done professionally, you'll never really be sure if it's going to break on the next round.

 

Does anyone rivet or screw their guide rails? Or is welding really the only method there? If I have to, I'll just get a welding shop to spot weld that, because I'm not buying a welder just to weld on 3 or 4 sets of rails. May even consider screwing or riveting them.

Edited by s2thalayer

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I've read in some places that all you need is a vice, a hammer, and some sort of blocks that are made of softer material than the barrel. In my case, I would try wooden blocks. I need to remove the barrel pin first, then clamp the barrel and knock the trunnion off using the blocks and a hammer, do my stuff with the front trunnion. Then put the barrel back in the vice, knock the trunnion back on, replace the barrel pin and done.

 

That may work. For removing a barrel from a trunnion without a press, lots of people have used this puller and reported good results. I cannot confirm because I built a hydraulic press years before I got into AKs, so I never needed to use anything else. Be sure to put a brass or copper coin or washer between the ram of the puller, and the breech face of the barrel.

 

Keep in mind that the reason re-installing the barrel is such a pain, is because the whole reason for removing it in the first place, is for riveting the receiver into the trunnion. So the receiver, which is weak and easy to damage, will be in your way. I would not recommend clamping it in a vise for reinstallation... What I have done was support the trunnion with various hardwood blocks (which could be clamped into a vise), and then beat the barrel in with my lead hammer. It's not ideal, but I've put together several rifles that way. I actually have the real press jig on order so I won't have to do that anymore. Save installing the rear trunnion for last, in case you overshoot and need to tap the barrel back out a smudge. Not having the rear trunnion in the way will give you a straighter shot at the barrel with a long punch. Remember to protect the breech face again with a piece of copper or brass.

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I had some of my riveting stuff out tonight anyway, so I laid it all out and took a picture:

 

akrivet.jpg

 

Rivet gun is a 3x recoilless from US Tool and Industrial Supply. That's a fairly high end gun and you don't need something like that to put an AK together. There are less expensive options that will do just as well, and a cheapo air hammer from the Depot should do the job also. The principal difference between the real aircraft tool, and the cheapo air hammer is that the aircraft tool will have a far more sensitive trigger, which will make the tool much easier to control and thus do a better job with. Bottom line is practice a lot before you tackle your rifle.

 

The first of the air hammer attachments is the rivet set for AN430 round head rivets, which are kind of an odd duck, but the head more closely matches the shape of the AK rivets than the more standard AN470 universal head rivets. The only place I have found the AN430 set is US Tool. That one is for 1/8" rivets, but I've found that sometimes the set for 5/32" rivets might be more appropriate. The next two are just plain air hammer bits that I modified for setting rivets for optic mount side rails, IIRC. The other ones are all knockout punches that are used for removing pins, stuck bolts, etc.

 

The modified bolt on the left is made to reach inside the front trunnion barrel channel and buck the shop heads of those rivets. The other one I made for bucking the lower rivet of the front trunnion through the mag well, but I've used it for other rivets too, like the scope rail rivets. The bolts are clamped securely in a vice that is attached to a solid bench. The last tool is a hole locator that I use to drill the holes for the front trunnion in the receiver. It eliminates most of the guesswork. Locating the holes for the rear trunnion can still be a bit of a booger, however.

 

Here is a mil spec pertaining to installation of solid rivets. There's a lot of extraneous information in it that isn't applicable to AKs, and it is geared towards the aluminum rivets used in aircraft work, but the basics are the same, and it covers some of the basics.

 

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