Optics - Forward Mount vs. Rear Mount

[lZl Jody lZl 1]

I've seen optics mounted in both the front and rear on AKs and Saiga shotguns. Mounting it in the front makes more sense on the rifle but wouldn't the ideal position be on the rear due to recoil and faster sighting? What are some advantages to mounting it in the front?

 

I searched the forum for this topic and didn't see it. Please link me to one if this has already been hashed out.

 

Thanks

[netpackrat 566]

With a red dot on an AK, it is a lot easier to get cowitness with the irons using a front mount. For a rear mount on a TWS rail with an Aimpoint C3, I found that it was just barely possible to get a low co-witness, using the lowest ring that Aimpoint makes. It was a special order item from Ultimak. Ended up going with a forward mount on that rifle for unrelated reasons.

[Horse 39]

There really aren't any good reasons to mount optics that far away from your eye anymore.

[netpackrat 566]

There really aren't any good reasons to mount optics that far away from your eye anymore.

 

Left side folder.

[Horse 39]

I've got two folders - and use the side rail on both.

Deploying the stock and attaching the optics takes about 5 seconds and with no loss of zero.

 

 

There is no reason to mount optics in such a compromised area any more.

[netpackrat 566]

I've got two folders - and use the side rail on both.

Deploying the stock and attaching the optics takes about 5 seconds and with no loss of zero.

 

Your mount can be removed and reinstalled with an Ace style hinge installed on a cut-tang block, configured to fold to the left? Without removing the hinge (and stock) from the rifle?

[Horse 39]

Yes. We made that change about a year ago.

Gen 2 is no problem.

[netpackrat 566]

I will keep that in mind next time around. Will a regular skeletonized style stock (i.e. no fancy cheek rests, etc) clear the mount by enough to still fold fully with the optic on?

Edited February 10, 2013 by Netpackrat

[mvalentin 3]

Any recos for a red-dot in the sub-$200 range? Being that I'm going to use my Saiga-12 for up to 30-m mostly, if that far at all. If more, I'll transition to my AK 74. I've got MP5 sights on it now which are pretty sweet, but if I had to make a more precision shot & go with slugs, I would like a red dot.

 

Looking to get it over the rail. Thanks.

[Horse 39]

Nope, mount has to come off to fold and lock the stock.

 

 

One of the best kept secrets in optics is the Primary Arms Micro. These are a great budget optic until you can save up for an Aimpoint.

[netpackrat 566]

Nope, mount has to come off to fold and lock the stock.

 

Yeah, thanks but no thanks. Maybe if I wind up with a fixed stock rifle again at some point. Looks like a nice mount, otherwise.

[Horse 39]

The purpose of the side folding stock as designed is to fold for transit. Any time the rifle was out of the case the stock was locked in the extended position.

 

 

Even if you like to travel with it folded (as I do) it is a matter of 5 seconds.

Its a non-issue.

[netpackrat 566]

Perhaps. I was thinking more along the lines that I am less likely to drop or otherwise damage the optic, if it remains attached to the rifle in its case, and I don't have to fumble with it every time I fold or unfold the stock. It isn't really about the time; if time is that short, the iron sights will do just fine.

[iconoclast 0]

Any recos for a red-dot in the sub-$200 range? Being that I'm going to use my Saiga-12 for up to 30-m mostly, if that far at all. If more, I'll transition to my AK 74. I've got MP5 sights on it now which are pretty sweet, but if I had to make a more precision shot & go with slugs, I would like a red dot.

 

Looking to get it over the rail. Thanks.

I have a Primary Arms micro dot on a Midwest Industries handguard with US Palm top cover on my M10 7.62. Hard to beat that combination unless you can get an Aimpoint T1. The setup gives a lower quadrant co-witness.

 

The converted Saiga sports a Bushnell Zoom Dot in a Midwest Industries 30mm side rail mount. That combo is also low enough to co-witness. The Bushnell can be ebay-ed for less than $200. It was designed by Millet (before they were acquired by Bushnell) to compete for a military contract. These sights are rugged and waterproof to 100 meters, and have auto adjust brightness. You can vary the dot size from 1 mil to 10 mils. The battery life is not as good as an Aimpoint, but everything else is good-to-go.

[Xpur3L0g1cX 3]

With my ace folder converted to fold to the left I cant seem to get my mount past the hinge. Ive tried 100 timesany tthoughts?

[lbsrdi 1,078]

With my ace folder converted to fold to the left I cant seem to get my mount past the hinge. Ive tried 100 timesany tthoughts?

If I know what you are saying, you need to remove the two bolts and take off the folder to get the mount on the side rail.

[Constantine 2]

What's the advantage to mounting a red dot rearwards? I've always heard it's better to mount them forward unless there's magnification. The advantages of forward mounting a red dot include wider field of view, less image loss due to the casing of the scope, and faster target acquisition. Red dots allow for shooting with both eyes open and rear mounting them may create a blind spot whereas forward mounting enables complete field of view. Eye relief is one of the major advantages of a red dot, and to fully utilize it wouldn't one want to mount the sight as far forward on the gun as possible?

 

I'm 90% sure it's better to mount a red dot in the forward position unless your using a dot that's heavy enough to affect the balance of the gun, but this is based off explanations I've heard from American soldiers/marines. If there's a reason the Russians do things differently other than the inherent position of the side mount on AK's I'd be interested to hear what it is.

 

 

Any recos for a red-dot in the sub-$200 range?  Being that I'm going to use my Saiga-12 for up to 30-m mostly, if that far at all.  If more, I'll transition to my AK 74.  I've got MP5 sights on it now which are pretty sweet, but if I had to make a more precision shot & go with slugs, I would like a red dot.  

 

Looking to get it over the rail.  Thanks.

 Bushnell TRS 25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGLOd1jHz8E

 

I have one of these and will probably buy more. I'd like an Aimpoint but I can get 6 guns squared away with these for the price of one Aimpoint h1/t1. I've yet to hear of anyone have any problems with the Bushnell TRS 25, and the battery life was over 4 months on setting 4 for me.

[nsnate02 32]

For cheaper optics the only ones I consider and use are the Vortex SPARC and Strikefire, both of which use Aimpoint mounts. Makes it real easy to find quality options for putting it on your gun TWS, RS, etc. 

 

I've heard nothing but good things about the Primary Arms optics which have the same benefits of the Vortex offering except cost less. I also really like the Bushnell TRS-25 for my Draco SBR on a TWS rail. Love that setup.

 

So in no order:

Bushnell TRS-25

Vortex Strikefire/SPARC

Primary Arms

[longhorn03 10]

Just put an RS REgulate and AKML on my saiga 308 yesterday.  Looks great.  Folding stock locks with it as well and the stock doesn't bang up against the mount, which is something I was not expecting.  1/3 cowitness.  Lowest mount I've seen to date.   Finally finished with this gun after years of tinkering and swapping out parts, cutting down barrel and adding muzzlebreak, going from plastic to wood to metal from crappy side mounts to forward mounts to TWS Gen II... finally no more money spent except on magazines and ammo.

 

 

Angle looking down when stock is folded.  It doesn't look like much room, but there is a very small amount of room that is large enough to make sure there is no contact.  Great product.

 

 

[brickfield mfg 86]

What's the advantage to mounting a red dot rearwards? I've always heard it's better to mount them forward unless there's magnification. The advantages of forward mounting a red dot include wider field of view, less image loss due to the casing of the scope, and faster target acquisition. Red dots allow for shooting with both eyes open and rear mounting them may create a blind spot whereas forward mounting enables complete field of view. Eye relief is one of the major advantages of a red dot, and to fully utilize it wouldn't one want to mount the sight as far forward on the gun as possible?

 

I'm 90% sure it's better to mount a red dot in the forward position unless your using a dot that's heavy enough to affect the balance of the gun, but this is based off explanations I've heard from American soldiers/marines. If there's a reason the Russians do things differently other than the inherent position of the side mount on AK's I'd be interested to hear what it is.

 

 

 

I was going to mount an Aimpoint T-1 on a Molot VEPR 12 just behind the rear sight, but was advised that there is a problem with ejecting hulls hitting the sight and causing malfunctions. I mounted it at the rear of the rail, it functions 100%, and it is very quick to pick up on target.  Not sure if this is an issue with the Saiga S12 with a rail over the top cover (such as Chaos Titan). I did previously use a T-1 on a unimak rail on the gas tube of a S-12, and it worked great.

[bullseyeboy 11]

Something I've always wondered but never have a good enough red dot to try it out is, if you mount a red dot optic forward does the dot itself appear smaller in relation to the target? If so does it make any difference in accuracy? The reason I ask this is because I've come across some good deals on some 6-8moa red dots but never pulled the trigger on buying one because I can shoot better than 6-8moa with my iron sights, so I always ask myself what would be the point in investing in the red dot.

[brickfield mfg 86]

I don't think the dot size changes enough between a forward or rearward mounted positions to notice, if they do at all. The 6-8 minute dots would be better suited on a shotgun than a rifle in my opinion, as they would be too large for precise aiming past 100yds.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

Something I've always wondered but never have a good enough red dot to try it out is, if you mount a red dot optic forward does the dot itself appear smaller in relation to the target? If so does it make any difference in accuracy? The reason I ask this is because I've come across some good deals on some 6-8moa red dots but never pulled the trigger on buying one because I can shoot better than 6-8moa with my iron sights, so I always ask myself what would be the point in investing in the red dot.

Fast target acquisition is the point of a red dot, not pin point accuracy.

[brickfield mfg 86]

 

Something I've always wondered but never have a good enough red dot to try it out is, if you mount a red dot optic forward does the dot itself appear smaller in relation to the target? If so does it make any difference in accuracy? The reason I ask this is because I've come across some good deals on some 6-8moa red dots but never pulled the trigger on buying one because I can shoot better than 6-8moa with my iron sights, so I always ask myself what would be the point in investing in the red dot.

Fast target acquisition is the point of a red dot, not pin point accuracy.

 

I agree, but your ability to hit a target at longer range is far better with a smaller dot...

[Mullet Man 2,114]

 

 

Something I've always wondered but never have a good enough red dot to try it out is, if you mount a red dot optic forward does the dot itself appear smaller in relation to the target? If so does it make any difference in accuracy? The reason I ask this is because I've come across some good deals on some 6-8moa red dots but never pulled the trigger on buying one because I can shoot better than 6-8moa with my iron sights, so I always ask myself what would be the point in investing in the red dot.

Fast target acquisition is the point of a red dot, not pin point accuracy.

 

I agree, but your ability to hit a target at longer range is far better with a smaller dot...

 

Well yea but its a common sense trade off. Long range you'd be better served with a "traditional" scope anyway. Pick your poison. When I framed houses we used hammers to drive nails.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Mullet Man

[brickfield mfg 86]

 

The original question referenced an AK, and a Saiga shotgun. I feel a smaller dot is better for a rifle application, but the shotgun shines with a larger red dot. I used a T-1 (4 moa) on a Saiga S12, and now on a VEPR 12, and it is a devastating combo! I would not hesitate to use a 6 or 8 moa sight on a shotgun either though, given the range limitations.

 

And being a cabinet maker for many years.... I prefer traditional joinery over mechanical fasteners, whether turned by hand or a screw gun, or driven by a hammer or nail gun. LOL

[Mullet Man 2,114]

The original question referenced an AK, and a Saiga shotgun. I feel a smaller dot is better for a rifle application, but the shotgun shines with a larger red dot. I used a T-1 (4 moa) on a Saiga S12, and now on a VEPR 12, and it is a devastating combo! I would not hesitate to use a 6 or 8 moa sight on a shotgun either though, given the range limitations.

 

And being a cabinet maker for many years.... I prefer traditional joinery over mechanical fasteners, whether turned by hand or a screw gun, or driven by a hammer or nail gun. LOL

You just reinforced my point, using the right tool for the job.