Aries144 10 Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 I was looking over threads in the Saiga12 section and saw a few posts about bolt carrier and oprod breakage. Most look like they were caused by bad heat treatment of the carrier, but I believe it was Pauly who mentioned that he also had noticed many of the op rods weren't bottomed out in the carriers and opined that this was causing breakage (of the front part of the carrier), since the threads and sidewalls were taking all the force.Does anyone else think it might be worth the effort to drill out the dimples, remove the op rod, and ensure that it's bottoming out in the carrier? Maybe adding a spacer to make up for any gap?Since there aren't any spares to be had, I feel like I want to protect my investment. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
doodi1 23 Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 This is the first I've heard of this issue. How prevalent is it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 Its not totally uncommon, but still happens. With Vepr 12 being made for years now, Id say its a non issue. Im not going to worry about it unless it happens. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 I was looking over threads in the Saiga12 section and saw a few posts about bolt carrier and oprod breakage. Most look like they were caused by bad heat treatment of the carrier, but I believe it was Pauly who mentioned that he also had noticed many of the op rods weren't bottomed out in the carriers and opined that this was causing breakage (of the front part of the carrier), since the threads and sidewalls were taking all the force. Does anyone else think it might be worth the effort to drill out the dimples, remove the op rod, and ensure that it's bottoming out in the carrier? Maybe adding a spacer to make up for any gap? Since there aren't any spares to be had, I feel like I want to protect my investment. I just do that to protect S-12s that are overgassed, but I'm doing it with a longer op-rod, so the over all length remains unchanged.. They're actually supposed to have a little play in them. The V-12 is a better gas system design than the S-12 in the regard that the puc's designed to center the op-rod and not get a huge running start before slamming into the op-rod. So far as I know, nobody's reported any issues with a V-12 yet. I won't be changing anything on my personal V-12. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ufo 20 Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 Same problem as with saiga. But bigger problem was braking gen #1's bolt. You have V-12 for a while... We are using it for competitions. I'll try to get some pics of broken rod. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aries144 10 Posted January 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 Pauly,Thanks for the comments. I feel like my Vepr 12 is gassed about right for birdshot, but seems way overgassed for magnum loads like the 3" Winchester Super X 00 buck I tried. It threw those spent shells over 30' forward and right. The Remington Shurshot 7 1/2 lands within a couple feet almost directly forward.I'm thinking of buying a spare puck from CSS to grind some gas relief grooves in for use with magnum loads. I'm kind of pissed I was taken in by the whole "self adjusting" gas system advertisement.UFO,Thanks for the input. Do you mean that you're still having problems with new ones? Or do you mean that the Gen #1 ones were the only ones breaking?If the carrier does break, what can be done about it? Could a Saiga 12 carrier and a custom made op rod be made to work? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
physicsnerd 139 Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 Pauly, Thanks for the comments. I feel like my Vepr 12 is gassed about right for birdshot, but seems way overgassed for magnum loads like the 3" Winchester Super X 00 buck I tried. It threw those spent shells over 30' forward and right. The Remington Shurshot 7 1/2 lands within a couple feet almost directly forward. I'm thinking of buying a spare puck from CSS to grind some gas relief grooves in for use with magnum loads. I'm kind of pissed I was taken in by the whole "self adjusting" gas system advertisement. UFO, Thanks for the input. Do you mean that you're still having problems with new ones? Or do you mean that the Gen #1 ones were the only ones breaking? If the carrier does break, what can be done about it? Could a Saiga 12 carrier and a custom made op rod be made to work? Two points: 1) It is interesting that you mention gas relief ports as this was the idea behind the ETac TwisterPuc Magnum which had the same thing to allow extra gas to blow by and reduce carrier speed. 2) I agree about the "self adjusting" thing. I'd seen enough pics of the gas system before I bought mine to determine that it was not so much self adjusting (ala Beretta A400 or Remington Versamax) as it was designed to fire and chamber a wide variety of ammunition. Presumably you will wear the gun more firing 3" shells in the way you'd wear a handgun faster if you shoot a lot of +P or +P+. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ufo 20 Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 I don't have pics of broken rod yet. When i get it i post it. About broken boltcarrier. - it could be repaired but it depends on the place of fault. About broken bolt. - yes if you have one from saiga, you can use it. - it could be repaired - gen#1 has bigger issues than gen #2(IMHO your guns) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aries144 10 Posted January 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 I don't have pics of broken rod yet.When i get it i post it. About broken boltcarrier. - it could be repaired but it depends on the place of fault. About broken bolt. - yes if you have one from saiga, you can use it. - it could be repaired - gen#1 has bigger issues than gen #2(IMHO your guns) Thank you very much! I appreciate your taking the time for this. Let me know if there's anything I can do for you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aries144 10 Posted January 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 Thanks for the info physicsnerd. I took a few looks at the gas system as seen in MAC's review, saw the little cutout in the end of the oprod, assumed that and the new puck shape looked like something that could make the gas system auto-adjusting, and went ahead with full faith. I should have read more before buying, but I'm still pleased with this thing's potential. It's just a pain that it still needs tweaking, like the Saigas. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted January 26, 2013 Report Share Posted January 26, 2013 Most of you op rod and carrier breakage is due to deflection. Check your gas block and make sure it is not canted on the barrel. Just because it is centered on the gas ports does not mean it is aligned with the correct center line axis. Just a few degrees off of center and the carrier/op rod will be operating at a an angle and this deflection will put more energy on one side than the other which will cause the breakage. The easiest way to do this, not always the most accurate, but if you don't have a way of measuring it, is to pull the dust cover, recoil spring assembly and take the bolt out of the carrier. Slide the carrier back and forth from all the way in battery and see if there is any resistance on the op rod. Sometimes just tap the gas block left and right a little and see where it frees the op rod the best. There should be zero side to side resistance. Jack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aries144 10 Posted January 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Thanks for the info Jack. I just removed everything you mentioned and things look fairly straight. I did notice that it is the gas tube in conjunction with the new oprod design (the 'bulge' specifically) that seems to keep the oprod from varying too much in lateral position; the new puck shape doesn't seem to do anything other than provide for an easy way to remove it when heavily fouled using the 'hook' on the end of the oprod. The puck itself doesn't look like it provides any guidance or additional stability at all.Looking at the design, it seems like it would be better to have the oprod be a part of the piston/puck, not attached to the carrier, or just leave the design the same as the AK's. Why, oh why, did they decide to depart from the method used in the AK rifles?Finally, why did someone say the Vepr 12 puck 'doesn't getting a running start and then smack the oprod?' It looks to me like it gets every bit as much of a running start and smacks the oprod ever bit as hard as the setup on the saiga shotgun gets. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
varickm 10 Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 (edited) There should be less of a gap between the puck and op-rod in the vepr.....On the vepr-12's i've seen, the puck stops pushing the op-rod immediately after the bolt unlocks from front the trunnion. I think this is what Molot was going for. I don't think the op-rods are necessarily meant to bottom out in the bolt carrier. Edited January 28, 2013 by varickm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aries144 10 Posted January 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Just so you know, the gap we're discussing is a gap inside the threaded area of the bolt carrier where the oprod scews in. There are some suggesting the reason carriers are breaking in this area is because the end of the oprod doesn't "bottom out" in the carrier, meaning the threaded side walls are taking all the force, leading to breakage if the heat treatment of this area isn't perfect. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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