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SGM mags failure to feed


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Remove bolt carrier.

 

Insert factory mag and repeatedly depress follower and note how it moves.

 

Insert SGM mag, depress follower note movement.

 

Push forward on bottom of SGM mag as hard as you can without breaking anything. Repeat follower depression.

 

Pull back on bottom of SGM mag, Repeat follower depression.

 

Note follower movement differences from Factory to SGM.

 

Does pulling or pushing on SGM mag cause the follower to stick even more?

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Whats the deal SGM??? I just got four mags and all of them FAIL. The rounds stick against the body in all of them.. 3" 2-3/4" doesn't matter. Not even one mag comes close. Arghhhghghg. My saiga12 mags all work fine.

 

 

SGM FAIL

 

I had this issue as well as a few other members. It happens when the mags are removed from the mold too soon and the mag body tapers too much towards the feed lips and the rounds and follower bind. I contacted them through the forum and had new mags on my doorstep one week after I shipped the old ones out. They'll warranty your mags.

 

I wonder if they've been trying to speed up manufacture to keep up with the demand for them.

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My SGM mags all had issues. Mag body too narrow at the top, did the old cork and boiling water trick to widen the mag body near the top and the shells slid fine after. The follower dragged at the back of the mag body near the top, working the follower by hand a few hundred times fixed that along with some graphite lube. Biggest problem is that due to having thick plastic feed lips instead of thinner metal like the factory mags the shells do not sit as high when the mag is inserted (area when rim sits). With bolt locked back put in a loaded mag, both factory and SGM and look at the height of the shell. Mine sits about 1/8" lower in the SGM's. They do run fine now but I hope something better comes out. I'm sacrificing one mag to a metal feed lip mod I'm working on.

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As someone posted above, perhaps you got bad mags. Instead of posting here why have you not contacted us directly to remedy the problem? We have the best warranty in the industry and deal directly with the consumer, even if we see it here until the customer contacts us directly or sends the magazines back for warranty replacement we can't help them.

 

We are not rushing production on the magazines what is happening is the shotguns have varying dimenisions on the magwell along with the mag catch. We have never and will never use metal in our locking lugs or feed lips. The main issue is the rear lockin lug, when we tested and did R&D on our mag it was with 5 shotguns. On 3 of them our mag locked right in and worked with no break in required, on the other 2 they had to be broke in by just rocking the mag in the gun until the groove was established on the locking lug. Also since that was the case we found it also put pressure on the sides of the mag which causes the follower to stick sometimes, again this will go away with use.

 

So we when started this project everyone wanted the lrbho to work, that delayed and changed the way the mags had to be designed and it seems there are even slight differences in lengths and tolerances of the lrbho lever. To sum it up our mags are from a brand new mold they are all identical. The shotguns vary a little bit when it comes to the mag well, lrbho lever and receiver dimensions around the mag well.

 

If you would like your mag issue resolved please call or email us becaue It takes about the same amount of effort to do that as it does to post on a forum with SGM Fail in a couple of threads! Bottom line if any one is not happy with our Vepr mags just tell us and we will make it right. But you have to contact us

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Whats the deal SGM??? I just got four mags and all of them FAIL. The rounds stick against the body in all of them.. 3" 2-3/4" doesn't matter. Not even one mag comes close. Arghhhghghg. My saiga12 mags all work fine.

 

 

SGM FAIL

Instead of wasting time whining on a we forum why dont you pick up the phone and contact them for warranty. They will replace their mags and stand by their warranty.

 

The only FAIL is on YOU for whining instead of getting the problem fixed.

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did you contact us about the mags not working madmanx4x4?

No. That post is about the fact everyone is aware they have varying dimensions. No one said it would be easy to make an after market mag but this is an old cop-out. I have noticed the butthurt from the slightest hint the mags don't work. Yes people should contact SGM directly if they have a mag problem. But trying to keep the hush on it and posting with an attitude every time you see someone post a thread that they have a problem I don't get. It is good for me as a buyer to know a "possibility" of a problem with a product. Then make my own choice if I want to buy it. Blaming the gun hs been done to death. I think the 10 and 12rnd mags for the saiga are great but the tone of your reply's in some of these threads come off as being a Jerk.

 

ETA I will say no point in having a dozen of threads like this and if you search the forum a thread can be found complaining about every mag made even factory so this is nothing new. The OP just wants to know how to make his mag work better. Not everyone wants to pay to ship a mag back with the chance of getting the same thing again.

Edited by madmax4x4
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I am sorry if you feel I am coming off as a jerk, I am only trying to let people know we are more than happy to take care of the problem for them. It seems some people do not read other threads that have in them the same replies from us on multiple threads. I believe there are about 10 threads that have addressed the issue multiple times, and some people just don't see them. We have no other way to say why some people have issues with the mags and why others don't but I have seen and used the same mag in one shotgun and it fits fine (new out of the wrap) then I put the same mag in a different shotgun and it has trouble fitting and locking in. So to say we are just blaming the shotgun to deflect people from buying our product or we are trying to keep it hush is not true. We have offered many suggestions, warranty options and help to people that have contacted us. We want people to tell us if they have a problem with our product because that is the only way we can fix or tweak it.

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I am sorry if you feel I am coming off as a jerk, I am only trying to let people know we are more than happy to take care of the problem for them. It seems some people do not read other threads that have in them the same replies from us on multiple threads. I believe there are about 10 threads that have addressed the issue multiple times, and some people just don't see them. We have no other way to say why some people have issues with the mags and why others don't but I have seen and used the same mag in one shotgun and it fits fine (new out of the wrap) then I put the same mag in a different shotgun and it has trouble fitting and locking in. So to say we are just blaming the shotgun to deflect people from buying our product or we are trying to keep it hush is not true. We have offered many suggestions, warranty options and help to people that have contacted us. We want people to tell us if they have a problem with our product because that is the only way we can fix or tweak it.

Agreed and I can understand it gets old seeing the same thread over and over. look at the 922 section haha.gif

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Seeing redundant threads on this forum is the norm it appears. It would help a lot imo if the Vepr 12 section of the forum had its own FAQ, and stickies to consolidate frequent threads like this. I'm glad SGM has such a great warranty for their magazines. However it seems like there is something not quite right about them if they are more finicky to the different tolerances of Vepr 12's while Molot and Izhmash don't seem to have this high of a problem rate. My SGM magazines followers are traveling smoother when I first received them, but still nowhere near how smooth my Molot magazines follower travels.

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The SGM Mag followers are sticky. Whereas the Factory mags are smooth as can be.

 

To my knowledge SGM has said they will exchange / swap the mags, I am not sure if that means they cover shipping costs, etc. However, at the same time they warn you that the molds are new and you will get the same product back - so it's a bit of a discouraging statement. You're also told if you modify them, you void the warranty - which is understandable but other than say we will swap them out for the exact same thing I am not sure what else is being done. There was mention a few times of mold release issues that could cause the mags to warp if they cool too fast, but that's not the only issue out there.

 

I contacted both TGI and SGM several times via email and phone- and each had failed to do anything to resolve the issues, pointing at the other. I was told there were no Veprs they could swap to fix the issue - all while Mach1 (SGM's Sister Company) was selling them for 1600+ on Gunbroker. I even offered to swap it for a used or test Vepr, hoping they would WANT to look at the Vepr with issues to understand what was going on better and be able to avoid it or address it when it came up with others. I was ignored.

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^

Not an intelligent move on their part imo for not wanting to do that exchange. SGM says they will warranty the magazines and swap them out, but discourage with the quote: it's all the same mold and we will send you the same exact thing. I've heard the mold issues, yet not directly from them. Until then it is hearsay.

 

And they state they tested 5 different Vepr 12's. They have a monopoly on the high capacity magazines for the Vepr 12( coincidence I'm sure), why would they not want to wrangle up a few of these Vepr 12's that are having problems with their magazines and see if they can improve their magazines by possibly finding a universal issue. SGM chimed into complain about so many of these threads, however the ratio of people claiming problems with their magazines is a very high rate. Higher then the rate of people with problems with the Vepr 12 firearm itself, and look how many threads there are on that.

 

I'm just so confused how they keep pinning it on the tolerances of the firearm itself, when it seems the majority of people who have issues with the SGM magazines do not have issues with the 'stock' Molot magazine. (Stock yes, but body and springs cut so I could see possibly problems even with these, but so far seems to be very rare if any) If the Molot magazine can deal with the variances of tolerances of the Vepr 12, shouldn't they either be able to match them, or at minimum stop pointing the finger at the firearm?

Edited by Muffman
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The SGM Mag followers are sticky. Whereas the Factory mags are smooth as can be.

 

To my knowledge SGM has said they will exchange / swap the mags, I am not sure if that means they cover shipping costs, etc. However, at the same time they warn you that the molds are new and you will get the same product back - so it's a bit of a discouraging statement. You're also told if you modify them, you void the warranty - which is understandable but other than say we will swap them out for the exact same thing I am not sure what else is being done. There was mention a few times of mold release issues that could cause the mags to warp if they cool too fast, but that's not the only issue out there.

 

I contacted both TGI and SGM several times via email and phone- and each had failed to do anything to resolve the issues, pointing at the other. I was told there were no Veprs they could swap to fix the issue - all while Mach1 (SGM's Sister Company) was selling them for 1600+ on Gunbroker. I even offered to swap it for a used or test Vepr, hoping they would WANT to look at the Vepr with issues to understand what was going on better and be able to avoid it or address it when it came up with others. I was ignored.

SGM better be paying shipping for defective mags. If they do not call your credit card and file a claim they will call both seller and mfg and someone will have to pay for that shipping. I went down this road last summer over bad NEW product and the bank made them make it right or they get your money back. This goes for anything you buy with CC and it shows up messed up, broke, non functioning and was sold as new.

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Just got back from the range! Only FTFeeds and FTExtracts were from my SGM magazines. SGM, I could tell right away I was going to have issues when I started loading my magazine with shells. They were having a hard time being inserted into the magazine and me trying to extract them was difficult. The first two magazines fired great with 1 FTF using Rio Game Load 7.5 shot, 1330 FPS. Everything else, and especially Federal Game Load, had tons of FTE's and FTF's.

I think I pin pointed the issue to the lips at the top being too narrow and catching the side of the shell. I'm not whining or complaining, I want SGM to know what my experience was! I really loved it when they cycled 100%, and I hope SGM is taking all this into consideration and revising their magazine's design. Nothing would make me happier than rocking 12 low base cheap shells out without any FTE's or FTF's.

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^

Not an intelligent move on their part imo for not wanting to do that exchange. SGM says they will warranty the magazines and swap them out, but discourage with the quote: it's all the same mold and we will send you the same exact thing. I've heard the mold issues, yet not directly from them. Until then it is hearsay.

 

And they state they tested 5 different Vepr 12's. They have a monopoly on the high capacity magazines for the Vepr 12( coincidence I'm sure), why would they not want to wrangle up a few of these Vepr 12's that are having problems with their magazines and see if they can improve their magazines by possibly finding a universal issue. SGM chimed into complain about so many of these threads, however the ratio of people claiming problems with their magazines is a very high rate. Higher then the rate of people with problems with the Vepr 12 firearm itself, and look how many threads there are on that.

 

I'm just so confused how they keep pinning it on the tolerances of the firearm itself, when it seems the majority of people who have issues with the SGM magazines do not have issues with the 'stock' Molot magazine. (Stock yes, but body and springs cut so I could see possibly problems even with these, but so far seems to be very rare if any) If the Molot magazine can deal with the variances of tolerances of the Vepr 12, shouldn't they either be able to match them, or at minimum stop pointing the finger at the firearm?

 

 

There are variances in the firearms, but I suspect at least some of the issues with SGM exist because the tolerances weren't taken into account. A sample size of <5 when testing a russian shotgun is not enough IMO.

 

I don't know the numbers admittedly, but I would imagine the costs of making new molds to accommodate any necessary design changes maybe quite a hurdle to overcome. The way this is handled may be being dictated by that more than anything else, but that's speculation. I just know there's issues that cannot or are not being addressed by contacting SGM, other than saying they will swap the mag for the exact same thing made from the same mold - which, at least in my case, won't fix anything.

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I'm holding onto the hope that someone from the community will come up with a mod for these for added reliability. I can't but help think it has to do with how smoothly the followers travel on Molot and Izhmah magazines versus the SGM magazines. So like a coat hanger with some sand paper? Smoothing the follower?

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I'm holding onto the hope that someone from the community will come up with a mod for these for added reliability. I can't but help think it has to do with how smoothly the followers travel on Molot and Izhmah magazines versus the SGM magazines. So like a coat hanger with some sand paper? Smoothing the follower?

 

I bet a lot of the issues maybe resolved by some sanding - but if you do your warranty is void, SGM says only choice is to swap.

 

I know with the issues I was having, sanding won't help since the mag is deforming to the point no amount of sanding would help.

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I posted a month or so about my mags not staying in. I have worked them in and out, over and over in hopes of being able to "Broke" them in. I had a chance to go back out today, and the only way I can keep the mags in (three 12 rounders), is to jam something between the mag release lever and the mag well. And I also have the FTF issue on two of them. And, again, the Factory mags work perfect. Something just isn't right with the SGM mags. I also agree that what's the point of returning them if they truly are from the same mold? I'd rather have a fix I can do myself.

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@ec4321:

How can you tell yours is deformed? Is their a test or something to look for? I understand why the warranty is null if modified, but sucks because feel like it could possibly delay a fix for these if there is a quick one because people are afraid to try things out. I'll admit I'm afraid to try, but only because I'm considering not keeping mine. Possibly selling them and going a different route.

Edited by Muffman
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@ec4321:

How can you tell yours is deformed? Is their a test or something to look for? I understand why the warranty is null if modified, but sucks because feel like it could possibly delay a fix for these if there is a quick one because people are afraid to try things out. I'll admit I'm afraid to try, but only because I'm considering not keeping mine. Possibly selling them and going a different route.

 

 

The mags I have (8 of them) are not deformed when inserted in a "Normal Vepr", but one Vepr had an unknown dimensional tolerance which caused the magazine to deform (I believe it caused the sides to bend in, pinching the follower) to the point the followers would stick/lock up anywhere from several inches to an inch or so from the top during use. It was intermittent, I believe because the mag had different forces on it during firing which causes it to move slightly in the mag well. However it would FTE at least a few rounds every mag, and when I tested this with the method I listed in the first post I made here - the follower had such a tight grip on it, there was no way the issue could be sanded away. If I pulled back on the bottom of the mag, there was no way in hell the follower was moving to the top. The amount of material I would have needed to sand off to provide clearance would have caused the mags to fail for other structural issues if it could be done at all.

 

It's possible one thing the SGM mags could use is a substantial ridge at the exact same location as the ridge on the rear of the factory mags that prevents further rearward rocking of the mag. I think, but don't know for sure, that may have solved the issue i was having. Only way to have know was extensive testing. I already spent 300 bucks on ammo, half that on gas and a lot of damn time - while lacking the experience to explore further theories much less execute on any of those theories to test them out.

Edited by ec4321
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I really wish SGM would take a more reasonable approach on the matter of modifying the mags voiding warranty in all cases. The mags and shotguns have such obvious dimension issues that some sanding of the mag catch at least is virtually required for proper fit and function. The amount of wear required to allow these mags to lock in without a lot of jiggling would take a lot of use. Also, the top outside edges of the mag are inexplicably squared instead of being rounded- this causes the mag to much more easily become hung up on insertion compared to the factory mags.

 

Being able to insert mags with a single, quick, effort is very important to competition or life-and-death use. Fitting 'tight,' without wobble, is usually a cosmetic thing unless it is absolutely necessary for feeding (In my experience it isn't). Ease of insertion/release and being enough within spec to allow reliable feeding are all that matter.

 

I experimented with one of my mags and found that carefully filing some material from the bottom of the mag catch was necessary to allow easier mag insertion. The mag still doesn't insert with as little effort as the factory mag though, even with followers and springs removed. I've noticed that the factory mag can be over-inserted about 1/8" which seems to increase the ease with which the mag is inserted. The top of the SGM mag is jammed into the bottom of the front trunnion before the mag catch can even catch the locking tab. This is why you have to insert and then 'jiggle' the mags while applying upward pressure to get them to lock. The top front of the mags forward of the feedlips needs to be lowered about 1/8" to allow some over insertion, which should fix this problem. This can't be done by the end user, as the little front 'lip' would be removed in the process. The mold would have to be changed. Raising the fence around the top of the mag so that it actually interfaced with the bottom of the receiver opening, like the factory mags, would also be beneficial.

 

Sanding the inside, mid section of the magazine opening was necessary since shotgun shell bodies were getting pinched here before they could reach the feedlips, even with the mag removed from the weapon. Removal of about 1/32" of material on each side was necessary, as was a couple of sandpaper swipes on the follower 'tabs' on both sides of the follower to eliminate sticking of the follower.

 

 

Suggested improvements:

 

1. Round the outside top edges of the feedlips to greatly decrease the likelihood of hangup, on the sides of the receiver opening inside the magwell, when inserting the mag.

 

2. Lower front top of mag by 1/16" to 1/8" to allow some overinsertion of mag to eliminate need for fitting of mag catch and/or 'jiggling' during insertion.

3. Address magazine shrinkage issue causing feed issues from pinched rounds near top of magazine travel.

 

4. Consider using 'fence' around top exterior of magazine as the overinsertion stop, interfacing with the bottom sides of receiver opening inside magwell, instead of using the front top of magazine against bottom of front trunnion.

Edited by Aries144
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hats the deal SGM??? I just got four mags and all of them FAIL. The rounds stick against the body in all of them.. 3" 2-3/4" doesn't matter. Not even one mag comes close. Arghhhghghg. My saiga12 mags all work fine.

 

 

SGM FAIL

Instead of wasting time whining on a we forum why dont you pick up the phone and contact them for warranty. They will replace their mags and stand by their warranty.

 

The only FAIL is on YOU for whining instead of getting the problem fixed.

All I can find for contact info is an email which I have emailed them to no response.

 

SGM

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The problem pictured above went away for me after the initial break in period SGM already stated multiple times that these mags need. Load and unload them multiple times with something other than that low brass. Mine fed fine after that, and a few dry cycles.

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Properly designed and manufactured mags should not require any break in. How many times have we heard of pmags needing to be broken in or OEM Molot mags??

 

I am not fussing at SGM (yet) the 12 round mags I have work very nicely in my V12. I have another V12 to arrive this week and will see how the mags work in the new gun.

Edited by Dr Robert Neville
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