MTRamMan 1 Posted February 2, 2013 Report Share Posted February 2, 2013 Hi all, I think I'll be running a red dot optic of some sort and want to be able to co-witness with my stock sites. I'd like a tri-rail as well, but dang, the Ulitmaks are pricey. I don't mind top dollar products, but I'm already dumping way more into this gun than I'd planned. I've seen the UTG products and plan on using their folding low profile vertical grip. Any thouights on the UTG rails or can anyone suggest another good aluminum rail? I want to keep the fore end uncluttered and light as possible as well. Thanks, Dan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spetnaz Soldier 47 Posted February 3, 2013 Report Share Posted February 3, 2013 Get the chaos quad rail from Cameron. Very good product and very good customer service. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dubya 198 Posted February 3, 2013 Report Share Posted February 3, 2013 (edited) You'll have to do some searching to find a setup that co-witnesses with the irons. I have a Chaos quad rail and absolutely love it but the only thing i have mounted on it is a MOE vertical grip on the bottom and rail covers on each side. I mounted my cheap Sightmark red dot (actually really nice for a cheap dot and has held up perfectly through 1200 rounds) in a UTG quick release side mount and it doesn't co-witness but works awesome. The quick release feature is great if you want to shoot just irons or if the optic ever broke when you actually need the rifle for SD you can still use the irons. Plus the side mount brings the optic closer to your face and retains zero after taking it off. Check it out. Edited February 3, 2013 by dubya Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MTRamMan 1 Posted February 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2013 You'll have to do some searching to find a setup that co-witnesses with the irons. I have a Chaos quad rail and absolutely love it but the only thing i have mounted on it is a MOE vertical grip on the bottom and rail covers on each side. I mounted my cheap Sightmark red dot (actually really nice for a cheap dot and has held up perfectly through 1200 rounds) in a UTG quick release side mount and it doesn't co-witness but works awesome. The quick release feature is great if you want to shoot just irons or if the optic ever broke when you actually need the rifle for SD you can still use the irons. Plus the side mount brings the optic closer to your face and retains zero after taking it off. Check it out.2013-02-02_21-54-20_776.jpg Thanks for the pic and info dubya. I'm looking at about 5 different rail systems, including the Chaos. Does it make the front end seem a tad heavy? I'll be mounting a red dot sight, UTG folding FG and a light of some sort so I want to keep it all as light as possible, but I don't really want a poly forend either. I'll look more into the side mount as well, I thought they weren't all that great at holding zero though. Nice clean setup btw! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dubya 198 Posted February 3, 2013 Report Share Posted February 3, 2013 It does have a little heft to it but it's nothing bad, it definitely doesn't weigh you down. I actually like it after shooting i can shoot it more accurately (off hand) than my buddy's Sig 556 or Bushmaster Carbon, the little extra weight stabilizes it better for off hand shooting. I had the side mount on and off 3 times yesterday and it stayed zeroed. Maybe it has to do with the QD lever clamping it down in the exact same spot each time opposed to a side mount you have to bolt on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mostholycerebus 415 Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) Midwest Industries has a rail with red-dot-specific top covers that supposedly co-witness. You have to get the top cover specific to your optic though. Im going to do Ultimak + Magpul forend lower, because the ultimak is the absolute lightest option and will allow me to swap in a LER scope if I want to. The magpul lower is rubberized poly with a bulge for grip, comes with rails you can add for a light. The other lightweight option is the Texas Weapons Systems dust cover rail. That could be a better option than the Ultimak for some people because the weight is more centered. Im gonna put that on my 22" M-series. Edited February 5, 2013 by mostholycerebus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PFerris 76 Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 I have seen a TRS 25 on a Ultimak rail and it witnessed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
essohbe 47 Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 I have the guntec one I'm trying to sell. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MTRamMan 1 Posted February 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 Midwest Industries has a rail with red-dot-specific top covers that supposedly co-witness. You have to get the top cover specific to your optic though. Im going to do Ultimak + Magpul forend lower, because the ultimak is the absolute lightest option and will allow me to swap in a LWR scope if I want to. The magpul lower is rubberized poly with a bulge for grip, comes with rails you can add for a light. The other lightweight option is the Texas Weapons Systems dust cover rail. That could be a better option than the Ultimak for some people because the weight is more centered. Im gonna put that on my 22" M-series. I haven't considered Magpul except for their AFG2 "grip". I recently read on the Ultimak that if you do alot of range shooting that the mount can heat up and transfer the heat to your sight to ratings higher than max as rec per manufacture. This was measured by a temp meter per another forum member with concerns to the elctronics. For casual shooting without alot of mag dumps I'm sure it's fine though. Cy4ka... PM sent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mostholycerebus 415 Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) I haven't considered Magpul except for their AFG2 "grip". I recently read on the Ultimak that if you do alot of range shooting that the mount can heat up and transfer the heat to your sight to ratings higher than max as rec per manufacture. This was measured by a temp meter per another forum member with concerns to the elctronics. For casual shooting without alot of mag dumps I'm sure it's fine though. Yeah, I saw that too. Then a saw a bunch of posts of people with different red dots who do all kinds of shooting say its not really an issue. If you're that worried about heat, the Aimpoint can definitely take it (though the TRS25 and PA also have), or run the Midwest Industries which doesnt touch the gas tube but cowitnesses. I believe both of these setups have been tested, and are trusted, in the sandbox and in 3-gun. Lots of people have also dropped their gas tube temp, and lessened recoil, by adding vent holes. Once the piston leaves the block youre good. Are you not doing casual shooting without alot of magdumps? If this is a working gun, UTG shouldnt even be on the table. What is your intended use? Edited February 5, 2013 by mostholycerebus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MTRamMan 1 Posted February 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Well I just got the gun and am in the process of converting it. My GF has one as well that's not converted... Yet... That I've had at the range and have played with. Of course I've done my share of mag dumps on my AR My AK will most def be a real world working pre/active/post zombie Appocalypse gun and not a Hollywood prop gun with everything known to man strapped, taped and welded onto it! Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spetnaz Soldier 47 Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 I wonder why everyone thinks zombies are real. It is way more logical to believe that our government may soon become tyranical. Im sure its just a fun thought..but I guess I dont mind calling hard headed Libs and Democrats zombies...ehh! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MTRamMan 1 Posted February 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 I think I'm leaning towards the Midwest Industries rail set up now. I see they have a specific Saiga version. Do I NEED to get this one or can I get any of their other models? They talk it being for models without an end cap and I have no idea if I have one or not. Can someone clear this up for me? I know these AK's shouldn't be this confusing, but dang, I must be a little slow lately. Thanks, Dan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 I use the guntec one as well. I had to search long and hard for it, but I am really happy with it. I only use the lower handguard though. I also use the Russian PK-01V red dot, and that co-witnesses straight out the box. I recommend it to everyone. tiny 1 moa dot, runs off of 2 AA batteries, and could be used to beat a tank to death. its also MUCH cheaper than comparable American sights. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mostholycerebus 415 Posted February 6, 2013 Report Share Posted February 6, 2013 (edited) If you look at a traditional wood AK, the two wood parts, the upper and lower handguards, are 'clamped' between endcaps on the trunnion and barrel (lower handguard) or gas tube (upper handgurd). The saiga does not have these endcaps installed on its barrel or gas tube. Rather, the saiga handguard slides onto a pin. The MI saiga-specific hanguard (i assume) also uses this pin as a mounting point, instead of the barrel clamp that the saiga is missing. I believe that the MI upper bolts to the MI lower, and doesnt really need the upper endcaps. That would explain how it works with a stock AMD65 (which has no gas tube clamp) and the saiga (again, no gas tube clamp). At least, thats what I picked up from reading quite a lot on this setup. Personally, im going Hogue + Ultimak because its a cheaper, lighter weight, tested combo, but if you want an aluminum handguard, the MI looks pretty good. The hogue has a heatshield and with a ported gas tube im not worried about heat, but the MI looks great. I dont wanna have o switch handguard uppers to switch optics either though. BTW Gabe uses a UTG rail with his Ultimak, so presumably that combo works, though the UTG is one of the heaver options. I would imagime anything can be made to work with some small filing/cutting though. Edited February 6, 2013 by mostholycerebus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
breid1970 327 Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 (edited) Ok, to clarify a question. I have your standard saiga 7.62 x 39. Am I able to use any AK47 quad rail or does it have to be saiga specific? Also, can i put on your standard six position stock that fits stamped ak47 and 74s. Edited February 7, 2013 by breid1970 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bigtwin 219 Posted February 7, 2013 Report Share Posted February 7, 2013 I wonder why everyone thinks zombies are real. It is way more logical to believe that our government may soon become tyranical. Im sure its just a fun thought..but I guess I dont mind calling hard headed Libs and Democrats zombies...ehh! Rethink this statement real hard....you already know.....Zombies are cool! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MTRamMan 1 Posted February 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2013 bump... Anymore suggestions people? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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