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After the conversion and deciding that I was going to make my S-12 a hobby and Duracoat it. Kinda want to paint it like the picture by my name. Anyway when I learned how crappy the paint is on the Saiga and reading the instructions for Duracoat, they have you scrubbing the metal with a pad to clean and rough things up. So I'm thinking of maybe something better. Being I have a big blast cabinet and we use glass shot, what would be the problem of blasting the parts to be painted? Sure would give a good base to hold the Duracoat. Of course everything would be stripped down to nothing and reassembled after the paint cures.

Going to break it back down this weekend and polish the bolt and other moving parts on the polish wheel using jeweler's rouge.

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I used moly resin on mine. It specifically mentioned not using glass because it pretty much polishes the surface. I imagine it would be the same for duracoat.

Yep exactly what I was going to say. Use sand or aluminum oxide instead.

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Not going to to go to all the trouble to change out the media since it would take a different gun also. We use it on aluminum, brass, stainless and anything else that we can get in the cabinet and it sure doesn't look like it polishes to me. I just see several other gun builders use glass shot in the blast cabinet to refinish their guns and thought, why not a Saiga.

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Be careful that your "glass shot" is actually glass beads, and not the crushed glass that some places sell as media. When I bought my cabinet, the crushed glass was all that the place I bought it had... It caused me no end of problems, because it was sharp enough that it would embed tiny particles in the metal, which was totally screwing up my powdercoating jobs (not gun related). I had to re-do a bunch of work several times before I figured out that the cabinet, and not the powdercoater or my parts wash process was causing the problem.

 

Once I tracked down some aluminum oxide, those problems went away. Another abrasive I have used that is even better, is silicon carbide, but I haven't been able to find a source for it in Anchorage. Be aware that both of these abrasives will wear out a standard ceramic nozzle very quickly. You will want to buy a carbide nozzle if you use either of these abrasives much.

 

Personally if I were going to refinish, I would use KG Gunkote, or one of the other oven cured finishes. Much tougher than a room temperature cure finish like Duracoat.

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Yep exactly what I was going to say. Use sand or aluminum oxide instead.

 

I know you said you didn't want to change media, but I've had phenomenal success with Al oxide. Doesn't bother sheet metal at all and leave a nice rough finish for paint to grab. I then rinse thoroughly with brake-cleaner, let dry, wipe down with PPG "ACRYLI-CLEAN" DX-330 (available at automotive paint shops) until my rag can't pick up any more dirt, let dry, and lay the paint down. I've never had a problem with any of the paint I've used adhering. I can't imagine that Duracoat would be any different.

 

Sand blasting sucks enough ass that I would use the best media possible since you're going to sink the time no matter what. I suppose if you weren't happy with the glass bead results you could always scuff it with a scotchbrite, but that also sucks and it's hard to get in the corners. 3M does offer scotchbrite rolock wheels, which might speed it up a bit.

 

I'm curious about Duracoating as well, so I'd like to know how it turns out for you and your process! Best of luck!

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70 grit aluminum oxide blasting puts down a great base for MolyResin (others) and doesn't carry the health hazards of a lot of other media. An after rinse with MEK will get rid of any possible residual oil.

Aluminum Oxide also lasts fairly long before it breaks down.

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I just had a great expirence with norrells moly resin. I don't have a cabinet, just a big 110 lb pressurized blaster from harbor freight. So using expensive media is not an option. I just use blasting sand from northern tool and wear a respirator. It does a great job for about 10$ for 50lb bag. The Moly resin I just used for the first time seems extremely tuff. When I try to scratch it with my finger nail it just grinds my fingernail down like a fingernail file and doesnt efect the coating. I had to bake it in the oven for about an hour but I really like the results. Just thought I would share my expirence.

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I just had a great expirence with norrells moly resin. I don't have a cabinet, just a big 110 lb pressurized blaster from harbor freight. So using expensive media is not an option. I just use blasting sand from northern tool and wear a respirator. It does a great job for about 10$ for 50lb bag. The Moly resin I just used for the first time seems extremely tuff. When I try to scratch it with my finger nail it just grinds my fingernail down like a fingernail file and doesnt efect the coating. I had to bake it in the oven for about an hour but I really like the results. Just thought I would share my expirence.

 

Get the BIG HF cabinet, make some small modifications, an run what you want. The cab is bot bad after a couple of minor tweaks.

 

Did my 258 I6 pan in it.. What more do you want? :)

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I just had a great expirence with norrells moly resin. I don't have a cabinet, just a big 110 lb pressurized blaster from harbor freight. So using expensive media is not an option. I just use blasting sand from northern tool and wear a respirator. It does a great job for about 10$ for 50lb bag. The Moly resin I just used for the first time seems extremely tuff. When I try to scratch it with my finger nail it just grinds my fingernail down like a fingernail file and doesnt efect the coating. I had to bake it in the oven for about an hour but I really like the results. Just thought I would share my expirence.

 

Get the BIG HF cabinet, make some small modifications, an run what you want. The cab is bot bad after a couple of minor tweaks.

 

Did my 258 I6 pan in it.. What more do you want? smile.png

What modifications did you make to the harbor freight cabinet?

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I just had a great expirence with norrells moly resin. I don't have a cabinet, just a big 110 lb pressurized blaster from harbor freight. So using expensive media is not an option. I just use blasting sand from northern tool and wear a respirator. It does a great job for about 10$ for 50lb bag. The Moly resin I just used for the first time seems extremely tuff. When I try to scratch it with my finger nail it just grinds my fingernail down like a fingernail file and doesnt efect the coating. I had to bake it in the oven for about an hour but I really like the results. Just thought I would share my expirence.

 

Get the BIG HF cabinet, make some small modifications, an run what you want. The cab is bot bad after a couple of minor tweaks.

 

Did my 258 I6 pan in it.. What more do you want? smile.png

What modifications did you make to the harbor freight cabinet?

 

Put a quick connect on the air supply, mounted casters to it, stiffened the legs (cross-braces), sealed up the window and suction port a bit better, longer syphon gun tube.

 

I suppose none of that is required, but it makes it a fair bit nicer. I've also always wanted to upgrade the lighting, but haven't gotten around to it yet. For the $200 on sale price it's an excellent value. I wouldn't buy the HF "dust collector" vac though.. It's just as loud as a normal shopvac. Ideally, I'd like to put enough hose on my shopvac to set the vac outside and not run drywall filters.

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I just did an extensive internet search on these coatings and on several sights including Duracote they warn against using glass bead. They said you NEED 60 grit aluminum oxide because it leaves a rough finish for the coating to bite into. The warned that if the surface is too smooth you WILL have problems with pealing and chiping. I read numerous reviews on different sites where people had these problems, many of them admitted that they did NOT use the 60 grit aluminum oxide. They either used glass bead, scotch brite pads, or sand paper. I chose to use the Moly cote from Norrel because it is reputed to be the next best thing to Ceracote without the difficulties to apply it properly. Even they suggest using 60-90 grit sand blasting for best results. Which ever product you decide to use go their site and throughly read their directions and follow them to the letter and you will NOT be dissapointed. Take some short cuts and you are on your own!

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Bead blasting leaves a dempled finish on steel and leaves a low peak to valley ration and minimalizes surface area for adhesion, and will create a "golf ball" effect with thin coatings.

Alum-oxide 70 grit creates a rough pitted texture acheiving pockets that fill with paint creating a superior adhesion. This creates two types of adhesion chemical and physical. The pain has it's own adhesive properties that allow it to stick to smoot surfaces, and the pits create fingers of paint that grip into the pockets making an air tight seal and a vaccum of sorts forming a two system bond thats very durable. This is why removing oils is so important as well as they prevent adhesion on the chemical level.

Below is the procedure I use for any paint project:

Field strip weapon.

Remove all furniture, FCG, PG, etc.

1.Use either rolled paper tape, or duct tape, or rubber stoppers to plug both ends of the bore.

2.Use duct tape to protect feed ramps , or high polish internals. For AK’s feed ramps aren’t as delicate so no extra protection is required.

3.Sand blast with 70grt alum oxide or 70grit media of your choice, avoid bead blasting as it we create a dimpled appearance with thin coatings.

4.If your using tape to plug bore remove for next step. Also gloves will be required for the entirety of this project. Even grease from your finger tips will contaminate the finish.

5.Sub merge weapon in acetone, or high strength rapid evaporating degreaser. For 10 min,

6.Heat leech weapon in oven for 20 min. Remove weapon and inspect for any “wet” spots, these are oils that have expanded and “leeched” out . IF any spots are found repeat steps 5 and 6 until no spots are found.

7. Preheat work piece to no less than 100f and no more than 130f before spraying. This will ensure that no humidity has a chance to form on work piece before spraying can begin.

8. Reinsert bore plugs. Hang your work piece carefully either by a thin wire through a hole or from the gas block.

9. Spray the difficult areas first. Begin spraying before your work piece, and continue spraying past it. ( often globs of paint will accumulate on sprayer tips and fly off at each trigger pull)

10. Cure as product directs.

Edited by poolingmyignorance
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Bead blasting leaves a dempled finish on steel and leaves a low peak to valley ration and minimalizes surface area for adhesion, and will create a "golf ball" effect with thin coatings.

Alum-oxide 70 grit creates a rough pitted texture acheiving pockets that fill with paint creating a superior adhesion. This creates two types of adhesion chemical and physical. The pain has it's own adhesive properties that allow it to stick to smoot surfaces, and the pits create fingers of paint that grip into the pockets making an air tight seal and a vaccum of sorts forming a two system bond thats very durable. This is why removing oils is so important as well as they prevent adhesion on the chemical level.

Below is the procedure I use for any paint project:

Field strip weapon.

Remove all furniture, FCG, PG, etc.

1.Use either rolled paper tape, or duct tape, or rubber stoppers to plug both ends of the bore.

2.Use duct tape to protect feed ramps , or high polish internals. For AK’s feed ramps aren’t as delicate so no extra protection is required.

3.Sand blast with 70grt alum oxide or 70grit media of your choice, avoid bead blasting as it we create a dimpled appearance with thin coatings.

4.If your using tape to plug bore remove for next step. Also gloves will be required for the entirety of this project. Even grease from your finger tips will contaminate the finish.

5.Sub merge weapon in acetone, or high strength rapid evaporating degreaser. For 10 min,

6.Heat leech weapon in oven for 20 min. Remove weapon and inspect for any “wet” spots, these are oils that have expanded and “leeched” out . IF any spots are found repeat steps 5 and 6 until no spots are found.

7. Preheat work piece to no less than 100f and no more than 130f before spraying. This will ensure that no humidity has a chance to form on work piece before spraying can begin.

8. Reinsert bore plugs. Hang your work piece carefully either by a thin wire through a hole or from the gas block.

9. Spray the difficult areas first. Begin spraying before your work piece, and continue spraying past it. ( often globs of paint will accumulate on sprayer tips and fly off at each trigger pull)

10. Cure as product directs.

 

Excellent procedure and comments. The only notes I would add is to make sure you buy POWDER FREE gloves... Most hardware store gloves have powder added to them to make them easier to get on and off. In my 'hood, Autobody Color and Paint as well and Menard's sells powder free gloves. Great for changing halogen light bulbs too!

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Bead blasting leaves a dempled finish on steel and leaves a low peak to valley ration and minimalizes surface area for adhesion, and will create a "golf ball" effect with thin coatings.

Alum-oxide 70 grit creates a rough pitted texture acheiving pockets that fill with paint creating a superior adhesion. This creates two types of adhesion chemical and physical. The pain has it's own adhesive properties that allow it to stick to smoot surfaces, and the pits create fingers of paint that grip into the pockets making an air tight seal and a vaccum of sorts forming a two system bond thats very durable. This is why removing oils is so important as well as they prevent adhesion on the chemical level.

Below is the procedure I use for any paint project:

Field strip weapon.

Remove all furniture, FCG, PG, etc.

1.Use either rolled paper tape, or duct tape, or rubber stoppers to plug both ends of the bore.

2.Use duct tape to protect feed ramps , or high polish internals. For AK’s feed ramps aren’t as delicate so no extra protection is required.

3.Sand blast with 70grt alum oxide or 70grit media of your choice, avoid bead blasting as it we create a dimpled appearance with thin coatings.

4.If your using tape to plug bore remove for next step. Also gloves will be required for the entirety of this project. Even grease from your finger tips will contaminate the finish.

5.Sub merge weapon in acetone, or high strength rapid evaporating degreaser. For 10 min,

6.Heat leech weapon in oven for 20 min. Remove weapon and inspect for any “wet” spots, these are oils that have expanded and “leeched” out . IF any spots are found repeat steps 5 and 6 until no spots are found.

7. Preheat work piece to no less than 100f and no more than 130f before spraying. This will ensure that no humidity has a chance to form on work piece before spraying can begin.

8. Reinsert bore plugs. Hang your work piece carefully either by a thin wire through a hole or from the gas block.

9. Spray the difficult areas first. Begin spraying before your work piece, and continue spraying past it. ( often globs of paint will accumulate on sprayer tips and fly off at each trigger pull)

10. Cure as product directs.

 

Excellent procedure and comments. The only notes I would add is to make sure you buy POWDER FREE gloves... Most hardware store gloves have powder added to them to make them easier to get on and off. In my 'hood, Autobody Color and Paint as well and Menard's sells powder free gloves. Great for changing halogen light bulbs too!

Solvent proof gloves are what the pros use. Latex is good for occasional temproary exposure, after that you'll want something that offers better protection.For further info refer to your chosen materals MSDS.

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I know all the professionals do sandblasting followed by parkerizing prior to spraying. Do you guys think using glass bead opposed to aluminum oxide will make a difference in that case? From what i understand the parkerizing itself will create the cavitys for the paint to adhere to.

 

I only ask because all the shops around here seem to use glass bead for some reason.

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After the conversion and deciding that I was going to make my S-12 a hobby and Duracoat it. Kinda want to paint it like the picture by my name. Anyway when I learned how crappy the paint is on the Saiga and reading the instructions for Duracoat, they have you scrubbing the metal with a pad to clean and rough things up. So I'm thinking of maybe something better. Being I have a big blast cabinet and we use glass shot, what would be the problem of blasting the parts to be painted? Sure would give a good base to hold the Duracoat. Of course everything would be stripped down to nothing and reassembled after the paint cures.

Going to break it back down this weekend and polish the bolt and other moving parts on the polish wheel using jeweler's rouge.

I use regular ole spray paint on mine. Engine paint for the barrel. No need for the rest of that stuff IMHO...

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If no one in your area does sand blasting you can buy a sand blast gun and a 50 LB bag of sand at Harbor Freight for something like $30. The other thing I read on one of the manufacturers sites ( I believe Duracote) was that the sand has to be "clean", they warned against taking it to an automotive or fabrication shop. If you do not have an oven large enough to heat the whole weapon I read that some use a propane torch. You do NOT want to heat it cherry red just pass the torch along the surface at a slow even rate and it will draw the oil out. If you really dont have the resources to do this right it is worth it to just send it to a professional. I did read several reviews on line where someone took shortcuts and the had to sand blast the whole thing back down and start over because it was flaking and chiping in the bad areas!

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Did some reading on the Duracoat site last night and they did recommend alum oxide but did not warn against using other media. On blued or parkerized guns, they did not recommend anything other than degreasing. But said any uncured silicone in the area, even still in the tube, will affect the process. They only recommend heating to 125 degrees for speeding the curing process. Don't think my oven will go that low.

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I believe that you were looking at the "air dry" duracote they also have a heat cured version that requires heating to above 300 degrees. To heat it to 125 degrees you might try an electric space heater and just hang the parts right in front of it, I did this to cure ceramic engine enamel and it worked O.K. Just take your time on the prep that IS the most critical part, we really dont want to read another thread where you had to strip the gun donw and start over.

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If no one in your area does sand blasting you can buy a sand blast gun and a 50 LB bag of sand at Harbor Freight for something like $30. The other thing I read on one of the manufacturers sites ( I believe Duracote) was that the sand has to be "clean", they warned against taking it to an automotive or fabrication shop. If you do not have an oven large enough to heat the whole weapon I read that some use a propane torch. You do NOT want to heat it cherry red just pass the torch along the surface at a slow even rate and it will draw the oil out. If you really dont have the resources to do this right it is worth it to just send it to a professional. I did read several reviews on line where someone took shortcuts and the had to sand blast the whole thing back down and start over because it was flaking and chiping in the bad areas!

 

In my experience when people talk about "clean" sand, they are politely telling you two things; 1. DON'T USE PLAYGROUND SAND (ever!), 2. Sift your sand frequently. If the the chunks of whatever isn't sand are small enough to go through your screen, then you're probably fine.

 

I've used my Kerosene heater (regular old wick style, not a salamander) for heating parts many times, mostly when painting parts in cooler weather. I just lay the parts on top of it and go by feel. When it's almost too uncomfortable to handle it, I consider it warm enough. I've also been known to arm pit the rattle can for a few minutes first. ;)

 

Not a scientific method, but it has served me well. In warmer weather I just go with whatever the ambient temp is. Anything under 70 and I start to get concerned.

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