LoudBoomBoom 26 Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 (edited) This is the second and final installment of my tests of recoil springs in the Saiga 12. The intent of these tests was to find that elusive ‘sweet spot’ where my favorite and most often used rounds, heavy slugs in 3-inch (76mm), would cycle properly and consistently with only a minimum amount of contact between the bolt support assembly and the butt plate. Both in its factory configuration and after certain modifications documented in other posts, the battering was still significant, thus the process of tuning the recoil spring system to reduce or eliminate that battering. Having failed to confirm the actual power rating of the factory springs (best guess was between 20 and 22 lbs.) and not geting the desired results with the limited offerings of the after-market Saiga vendors, some research indicated others had success in using recoil springs made for the Colt 1911 pistols. The folks at Wolff (www.gunsprings.com ) had no suggestions at all for Saigas but they did know their Colt stuff quite well. They graciously provided specs on their range of Colt 1911 recoil springs (these guys Rock!), which I used to compare with my own measurements of the other springs I had. Based on this, I ordered one of each of everything they had, starting at 23 lbs. and up to their heaviest, 28 lbs., and got the following: # 41923 23 lbs. # 41924 24 lbs. # 41926 26 lbs. # 41928 28 lbs. For the first test I used the 26 in the front, the 28 in the rear, and the DPH gas plug set on 1. This just about nailed it right off the bat. These are the results: Remington AccuTip – Ejected – No impact (on butt plate) Brenneke Magnum Crush – Ejected – Light impact Lightfield Hybred-Elite – Ejected – Very light impact Lightfield Commander IDS – Ejected – Medium light impact Lightfield Commander IDS (custom) – Ejected – Medium impact Brass Custom Load G – Ejected – No impact Brass Custom Load H – Ejected – Light impact Brass Custom Load I – Ejected – Light impact Brass Custom Load J – Ejected – Light impact Sauvestre Balle-Fleche – Did not arrive from Century on time for test Brenneke KO - FTE Ddupleks Dupo28 2 ¾ - FTE All Federal buckshot 1B through 000 - FTE All Winchester buckshot 1B through 00- FTE All Brass Custom loads A through F – FTE Based on these results, keeping the 26/28 spring set is the way to go. This will allow me to shoot the heaviest commercially-available round tested without any concern for battering of the butt plate and still be within SAAMI pressure specs. It will, likewise, allow me some additional room for development using Brass Custom loads. Because everything was tested at setting 1 on the DPH gas plug, I also have the option to ‘dial-in’ everything else to 2, or some other number to be determined, and retain full functionality with those weaker loads; that would be a low-priority test for another day. The next test I will release data for is scheduled to be for slug Terminal Ballistics (GunFun was also interested). Below are a couple of pictures… (yes, MisterT… it DID happen). Please note that, although all pertinent safety protocols were observed during these tests, my release of the results does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation for any particular brand, model, or type of ammunition, equipment, or testing methodology; it is provided only as a potential subject of discussion of empirical data for the satisfaction of the curiosity of like-minded forum members. As always, I welcome your questions and observations. Now, I need to look up the rules on posting WTS’s. If someone sends me a link, it would save me some time… Thanks Edited February 24, 2013 by LoudBoomBoom 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Thank you for all the time you spent on this and gathering all this (and future) information to share. That said, I believe there is way too much fear and worry on this forum, associated with "over gassing" and "battering the rear trunnion". It's a damn AK and it's MADE to take abuse! The Russian ammo is stronger than what we use, and in all my researching Russian sites back in the day, before all the hoopla about "over gassing" started and like ONE guy posted pics of loose rivets...followed quickly by people on this forum tripping out and starting a movement... I seriously don't see what all the fuss is about. <Digs in.... ignores all the incoming insults from freakers...and keeps right on keepin on with wide open ports and loads in 2000 model S-12...> Edit to add... Again fine sir, I am in no way trying to be disrespectful and do very much appreciate all the info you have presented. I'm just saying that way too many folks are way to worried they are going to hurt their poor Saiga 12. I've beat the everlovin S#!t out of my favorite one for a decade almost, with absolutely zero problems. Just sayin.... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LoudBoomBoom 26 Posted February 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Point well taken... and coming from someone as experienced as yourself, it is also most welcome. It is very reassuring and comforting to know the steps I've taken to protect an already very sturdy platform will only add to the longevity and usefulness of it for years to come. Having lived behind the 'Iron Curtain' and experiencing first hand the rampant low quality of goods produced by state-employed workers with few prospects for the future, and the powerlessness of the consumer to do anything to improve the quality of his purchased posessions, I may have a tendency to over-compensate now that I live in the United States and, as a free citizen, have both the desire and the means to better control the quality of my environment to the extent I am willing and able. It is a blessing to be surrounded by members of this forum who are knowledgeable and uninhibited in freely sharing the wealth of their expertise with those who, like myself, are seeking to improve their enjoyment of a sport so gravely curtailed to so many others elsewhere. Thank you. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Run and Gun 25 Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Thanks for the Great info! I'm looking forward to your report on the light loads and what springs work for them. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LoudBoomBoom 26 Posted February 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Run and Gun - I apologize for having given you the impression that I was also doing a report on light loads. With the exception of a couple of non-lethals (rubber slugs and balls) which I cycle manually, I don't use any light loads. All modifications I have done to my Saiga have been exclusively to enhance the use of high-power loads. In the process of researching this mods, however, I came across many, many, posts covering tuning for light loads in considerable depth. I am sure that if you spent just a few hours going through the pertinent pinned threads and then doing focused searches you will gather enough information to be able put together a comprehensive set of facts that would guide you to achieving success for your particular light load needs. For example, Wolff has recoil springs for the Colt 1911 pistol that go all the way down to 7 lbs, likely much lighter than you might need but nice to know. But, as I have come to appreciate, tuning for light loads encompasses many more aspects than springs and they all have to be delicately balanced to achieve perfection. Bolt work... profiling, polishing Gas ports... number, sizes, angle, maintenance Internals... alignment, interference, paint, lube, springs, magazine follower, gas puc, gas plug Even how you hold the firearm has a bearing on it... and that is just some of the stuff I've heard from others when they were discussing light loads and I wasn't even paying attention. There is so much good information spread around within this forum's many posts that is like a Las Vegas casino buffet... No excuse to leave hungry. In fact, to help you save time researching, here is your first tip: Skip reading any posts from me. You won't learn anything from me about light loads because I don't know anything about light loads. Sorry... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Run and Gun 25 Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 No problem, I have been soaking up info on this site for months. I'm always looking out for more info though. I still appreciate the info you have given us. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Run and Gun 25 Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 (edited) Oops Edited February 24, 2013 by Run and Gun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LoudBoomBoom 26 Posted February 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Run and Gun - My pleasure!... BTW, What car is that in the background of your avatar? and another question... Did she wash her hands when she got up? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Run and Gun 25 Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 Run and Gun - My pleasure!... BTW, What car is that in the background of your avatar? and another question... Did she wash her hands when she got up? That's my lovely wife with our 2011 camaro SS. I'm not sure if she washed her hands. I've been meaning to post some pics of her with my AK-47 and some of my competition pistols. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 Very cool to get data like this. like Cobra, I want to keep the versatility of my guns and see no real fear of beating them up in my lifetime even with the slugs I shoot. However, it is nice to know the limits of function, the standard spring rates, and what can be done to optimize the gun for a particular purpose. Almost all of the work of that sort previously has been done at the other end of the power spectrum. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) I've been shooting the SBS on setting 2 for some time now, no matter what load, in an effort to break the carrier repair I did. All I want to do is identify a failure of the repair due to abuse. I'm becoming frustrated with it as it appears to be as stubborn as I am. I may have net my match.... Funny how different our goals can be.... Edited February 26, 2013 by evlblkwpnz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted February 26, 2013 Report Share Posted February 26, 2013 Either way, you both know your weapons well and make them work for you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LoudBoomBoom 26 Posted March 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 Update - The slugs I was waiting on to do the slug test mentioned above have, finally, arrived; these are the Sauvestre Balle Fleche in 76mm (3-inch). A distributor in Apeldoorn, Netherlands, that I get other stuff from had them in stock but there were some potential issues with US Customs so I didn't order from him, and... Lo and Behold!... I found out Century Arms, right here in the US, had them in stock, I ordered them, waited a lifetime for them to get here, and now they did. For now, I just got hit with a bunch of work all at once and the heavy rains washed out the main road and one side of the foundation so I won't be able to get some range time for a while. As soon as I do, however, I'll report back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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