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MS-12

Broke Galil charge handle...again!

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Even with a proper weld, the problem is metal fatigue. If you could film the carrier/charging handle in high speed photography and then slow it down, that handle will be whipping like a fishing pole!!!

Eventually, after X amount of cycles, fatigue will happen and the handle will crack. Might be 50K cycles, might be 200. Lots of variables, but it will happen. After a very long shooting session (250-500 rounds) it will be more likely to happen because you also have the heat factor along with the flexing. Bend a piece of metal back and forth until it breaks and feel how much heat has built up in it! Back to basic physics. How it is welded to the carrier makes a big difference because it can alter the properties of the handle depending on how much heat is transferred and the annealing properties.

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I don't ever recall IMI Galil having this issue be it .223 or .308. I've seen lots of knobs beat to shit but the L handle has always been intact. Maybe I've missed something or possibly the Isreali know something we do not002.gif

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The OP was not about the Galil Rifles, this is about an aftermarket style Galil Charging Handle being welded to a cast carrier. Plus, it has been many years since I have held/handled a Galil Style Rifle, but I believe the handle comes up straight from the side of the carrier, it does not have a 90 degree leg on it, like the aftermarket handles. I carried a SANDF R-4 which is a Licensed Copy of the Galil, when I was in Darfur, Sudan and the charging handle came straight up from the side of the carrier, they can not flex like the aftermarket products.

 

Big difference between properly engineering product/parts and failure of aftermarket welded DIY parts of dissimilar materiel and hardness properties.

 

If I made a carrier out of 4140, welded a 4140 Galil Style Charging handle to it, and then brought them both to a Rockwell Hardness of 58, then I would be able to guarantee the life of the product.

 

Jack

 

PS: With regards to the Galil Handle and longevity as an aftermarket product, one needs to look at how well they have lasted/functioned on all the Tromix Builds.

Tony/Tromix is one of the finest TIG Welders in the industry, I have seen a lot of his work and he knows what he is doing with a TIG Torch!!

Success or failure depends on how the work is done.

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You need to get a experienced welder to do the job. Since this is the second time I would ask the shop to provide a CWI letter or some other type of inspection that verifies the weld procedure is correct that the welder is certified for the material and procedures used.

 

I watched a couple of younger welders get into a pissing match one day at lunch over who was the best welder on site. The most experienced welder on the site walked over and grabbed one of their empty coke cans ripped in half TIG welded back together and then filled it water no leaks....He then told them to STFU b/c he didn't want to hear their BS during his lunch break....haha.gif

There is no substitute for experience....

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Honestly what I would do is cut that POS off, my gun at the break. Then drill the knob off the old one. From there buy a piece of 316l keystock (close to the same size as the orignal part looks about 1/4") from a machine supply store :about $4/ft. Then weld the knob to the keystock, blend that weld, then weld it to the carrier. Problem solved, problem staying solved.

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You need to get a experienced welder to do the job. Since this is the second time I would ask the shop to provide a CWI letter or some other type of inspection that verifies the weld procedure is correct that the welder is certified for the material and procedures used.

 

I watched a couple of younger welders get into a pissing match one day at lunch over who was the best welder on site. The most experienced welder on the site walked over and grabbed one of their empty coke cans ripped in half TIG welded back together and then filled it water no leaks....He then told them to STFU b/c he didn't want to hear their BS during his lunch break....haha.gif

There is no substitute for experience....

 

That is impressive...

 

Out of curiosity, how long did it take him to stitch it up? 10 min?

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Welding/Machine work/general fabrication are skills that insure you'll never end up on the street. That's for sure. The possibilities are endless when you can build nearly anything and at a much higher quality than anything in stores.



There is no substitute for experience....

One of my buddy's been doing it for decades. Tells me all the time because I'm learning, it's all about practice. Anyone can do it if they put the time in.

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Seems like a better designed

 

The OP was not about the Galil Rifles, this is about an aftermarket style Galil Charging Handle being welded to a cast carrier. Plus, it has been many years since I have held/handled a Galil Style Rifle, but I believe the handle comes up straight from the side of the carrier, it does not have a 90 degree leg on it, like the aftermarket handles. I carried a SANDF R-4 which is a Licensed Copy of the Galil, when I was in Darfur, Sudan and the charging handle came straight up from the side of the carrier, they can not flex like the aftermarket products.

 

Big difference between properly engineering product/parts and failure of aftermarket welded DIY parts of dissimilar materiel and hardness properties.

 

If I made a carrier out of 4140, welded a 4140 Galil Style Charging handle to it, and then brought them both to a Rockwell Hardness of 58, then I would be able to guarantee the life of the product.

 

Jack

 

PS: With regards to the Galil Handle and longevity as an aftermarket product, one needs to look at how well they have lasted/functioned on all the Tromix Builds.

Tony/Tromix is one of the finest TIG Welders in the industry, I have seen a lot of his work and he knows what he is doing with a TIG Torch!!

Success or failure depends on how the work is done.

 

Seems like a better designed handle might help things too. I was just dicking around, so this is pretty crude, but a handle with a much larger base to weld on to the bolt and an upright with some decent fillets should hold up better. Just my thoughts. I'm curious to hear what you think.

post-33185-0-41397400-1362184961.jpg

post-33185-0-37579500-1362184969.jpg

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You need to get a experienced welder to do the job. Since this is the second time I would ask the shop to provide a CWI letter or some other type of inspection that verifies the weld procedure is correct that the welder is certified for the material and procedures used.

 

I watched a couple of younger welders get into a pissing match one day at lunch over who was the best welder on site. The most experienced welder on the site walked over and grabbed one of their empty coke cans ripped in half TIG welded back together and then filled it water no leaks....He then told them to STFU b/c he didn't want to hear their BS during his lunch break....haha.gif

There is no substitute for experience....

 

That is impressive...

 

Out of curiosity, how long did it take him to stitch it up? 10 min?

about that maybe a little longer...It was my first week on the job out of college so I was more amazed by what I was seeing than keeping track of time...

 

Welding is an art form..to be good at it like any art form you need to practice...All the welding I see now a days is structural steel, 60 to 100 ksi plate mostly. After 10 years of looking at welds it is easy to tell a good weld from a bad one even with galv on it and I'm no CWI..

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Now I'm seriously thinking about just asking for a refund...

Too bad Pauly isn't currently taking any orders :( what other vendors would you guys recommend for good quality job?

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Now I'm seriously thinking about just asking for a refund... Too bad Pauly isn't currently taking any orders sad.png what other vendors would you guys recommend for good quality job?

 

I'd like to have Pauly do some work for me too. But... craftsmanship isn't a drag race. I'd rather he take his time and be happy doing excellent work than get rushed and haggered and start putting out less than the quality he is known for. I respect him as a vendor for halting orders. Soo... If Pauly is what you want, then patience is a virtue.

 

@JT Engineering You 'liked it', but how much did you like it? If you think it has merit, I'll bust out my work computer and get down to business making that a sheet metal part that is inexpensive to manufacture. I'll GIVE you the drawing if you'd like to entertain offering it at a fair value to the AK community.

 

edit: If so... I'll need some basic dimensions off of the galil style charging handle to get the height and width right. I don't have one as I like the look of the AK "as-is" in that regard.

Edited by Maxwelhse

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Now I'm seriously thinking about just asking for a refund...

Too bad Pauly isn't currently taking any orders :( what other vendors would you guys recommend for good quality job?

 

Try tac 47 in Houston. They done mine right

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Try tac 47 in Houston. They done mine right

 

This is a tac47 build.

Edited by HighPlainsDrifter

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Now I'm seriously thinking about just asking for a refund... Too bad Pauly isn't currently taking any orders sad.png what other vendors would you guys recommend for good quality job?

 

I'd like to have Pauly do some work for me too. But... craftsmanship isn't a drag race. I'd rather he take his time and be happy doing excellent work than get rushed and haggered and start putting out less than the quality he is known for. I respect him as a vendor for halting orders. Soo... If Pauly is what you want, then patience is a virtue.

 

@JT Engineering You 'liked it', but how much did you like it? If you think it has merit, I'll bust out my work computer and get down to business making that a sheet metal part that is inexpensive to manufacture. I'll GIVE you the drawing if you'd like to entertain offering it at a fair value to the AK community.

 

edit: If so... I'll need some basic dimensions off of the galil style charging handle to get the height and width right. I don't have one as I like the look of the AK "as-is" in that regard.

Thanks, but I have never been a fan of the Galil Style Charging Handle and won't use them. If I am going to modify the charging handle, I use a left side charging handle.

 

Jack

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Jack, I re-read your posts and I think your right about the hardness vs annealing. The IMI unit does have the L bend, but they probably have the process down and for all I know the whole bolt asm could be hardened after the process. I can see if the material used or hardness was wrong how it could fracture. Length of the handle and mass could also be a factor. The IMI knobs are hollow and silver soldered or brazed to the handle.

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The OP was not about the Galil Rifles, this is about an aftermarket style Galil Charging Handle being welded to a cast carrier. Plus, it has been many years since I have held/handled a Galil Style Rifle, but I believe the handle comes up straight from the side of the carrier, it does not have a 90 degree leg on it, like the aftermarket handles. I carried a SANDF R-4 which is a Licensed Copy of the Galil, when I was in Darfur, Sudan and the charging handle came straight up from the side of the carrier, they can not flex like the aftermarket products.

 

Big difference between properly engineering product/parts and failure of aftermarket welded DIY parts of dissimilar materiel and hardness properties.

 

If I made a carrier out of 4140, welded a 4140 Galil Style Charging handle to it, and then brought them both to a Rockwell Hardness of 58, then I would be able to guarantee the life of the product.

 

Jack

 

PS: With regards to the Galil Handle and longevity as an aftermarket product, one needs to look at how well they have lasted/functioned on all the Tromix Builds.

Tony/Tromix is one of the finest TIG Welders in the industry, I have seen a lot of his work and he knows what he is doing with a TIG Torch!!

Success or failure depends on how the work is done.

 

Jack is correct about the Galil vs "Galil style" charging handle in terms of the physics of fatigue, and the structure of the charging handle itself. The Galil charging handle merges directly with the bolt carrier. The handle itself is an elongated Isosceles triangle which reaches straight up from the bolt carrier, rather than being a, more or less, right angle rectangular post arrangement with a gusset at the weld joint. The Galil charging handle is quite beefy where it joins the carrier, and much lighter at the top.

 

Where the handle merges with the carrier, the over all width of the Galil handle at its base is easily twice that of a Saiga. The metal between the charging handle and the lug channel underneath is much thicker as well. The Galil is engineered from the ground up for a vertical charging handle. The Saiga is not.

 

I've seen bone stock S12 factory charging handles snap right off from fatigue. Triple or quadruple the weight and mass of the charging handle, change the hardness and temper of the metal by adding a weld to the equation, and the likelihood of the same event occurring is exponentially higher.

 

This is an extremely popular mod, because it can be extremely practical in terms of operation. The best advice I can give to anyone planning to have this mod done is, choose a shop that really knows what they are doing with it, who will stand behind the work, and can competently make repairs if they become necessary.

 

I can tell you from personal experience, it sucks to be standing there with no charging handle, and a round in the chamber.

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Looks like I should have done my homework a little more on this mod before doing it :( maybe I will end up sending it to you Mike :) I recently saw a guy at my local range and he had one of you S12 builds. He let me try it out and I was really impressed with it!

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It looks like it is cracking on the outside edge of the weld. The material could be getting brittle due to the welding and the heat. Also they should grind a rounded radius instead of leaving a right angle. This is just an attachment weld they should be using mild steel tig wire and tig welding it, trying not to get it to hot. If the shop really new there stuff they would MPI inspect it after they welded it and prepped it, checking for any cracks or welding porosity. I am a certified welder and level 2 mpi inpector, lol.

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Looks like I should have done my homework a little more on this mod before doing it sad.png maybe I will end up sending it to you Mike smile.png I recently saw a guy at my local range and he had one of you S12 builds. He let me try it out and I was really impressed with it!

 

Thanks MS-12!

 

We don't install Galil type charging handles, and specialize in complete high performance builds. If you want to have the entire system rebuilt and performance tuned - we can definitely be of service to you. If your gun has already been modified and is otherwise running well, you don't need our services.

 

The shop that installed it should be able to take care of it for you.

 

Best regards,

 

Mike

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Now I'm seriously thinking about just asking for a refund... Too bad Pauly isn't currently taking any orders sad.png what other vendors would you guys recommend for good quality job?

 

 

I have read enough... I told you, bring it in and we will weld it.. As far as better quality than us It aint going to happen. I am not sure why yours broke, but damn sure we can make it work for you I have done more than i can count and your seems to need some extra. However theres nothing that paully or any body else for that matter does better. NEED TO SEND IT TO SOMEONE ELSE.... YOU ALREADY HAVE THE BADDEST GUN YOU CAN BUY. ... we warranty all of our work. and at no charge to you will fix your charging handle and it wont come off again. I have sent you emails and requested the Carrier for repair. Im not sure to what you intent to do by soliciting someone to do it better or questioning the quality of our work but our quality is bar none. Every welder at our shop, has welded ten plus years at a minimum and I assure you we have it down. and to the posters ...MPI a charging handle is laughable over kill this is not a critical weld. If you want particle it .. im dont think it would cost you 90 buck any more.

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Send it back to Tac47, I work for them, I'll weld it myself. But having 12+ year experience as a G6 certified welder, I can assure you that Keith and Cliffs' welding abilties are top notch as well. As I said earilier it's most likely the base material, many of these after market parts are subject having the occasional fluke in material quailty. Not sure who welded this part, but it won't EVER be an issue again.

I'm certian that a CWI knows the price and cost of getting MTR's on a part or having it MP, UT. Nobody is going to do that.

Edited by poolingmyignorance

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If the OP report that it has already been fixed before is true, and I see no reason to doubt it, then it is completely understandable to begin looking at other options for repairs. Sending it back for warranty work again is still likely the best option, but it is hard to blame him for having doubts. If it broke twice, then it broke twice. Even quality jobs have the occasional fluke. It happens. From the customers standpoint however they expect it to be right the first time and never break, reasonable or not. I have worked just a little bit with metal myself and I happen to know how this sort of thing can happen even with no fault in the workmanship at all. Most customers have not had this experience, so they will react from their gut feelings only. Having something break twice would give many people a bad feeling about the service. The hard truth is that you are expected to have a perfect product every time and will get blamed for any failures even if they are not your fault. Most of the time the customer doesn't really care about the reason. They just want their stuff right.

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"MPI a charging handle is laughable over kill this is not a critical weld."

 

Tell that to the OP who doesn't have a charging handle.....MPI is overkill...Re-weld it run a 100 or so rounds thru it and then a DPI...if no cracks are observed paint it up.

 

Can't blame the guy for asking around isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result?

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MPI is not laughable. I know a charging handle is an attachment weld, but if it is breaking, then checking it for cracks won't hurt. If it has no cracks then it is breaking due to the metal getting brittle. It would only take 2 minutes to check it for cracks. Any real good weld shop should be able to mag particle inspect their welds.

Now I'm seriously thinking about just asking for a refund... Too bad Pauly isn't currently taking any orders sad.png what other vendors would you guys recommend for good quality job?

 

 

I have read enough... I told you, bring it in and we will weld it.. As far as better quality than us It aint going to happen. I am not sure why yours broke, but damn sure we can make it work for you I have done more than i can count and your seems to need some extra. However theres nothing that paully or any body else for that matter does better. NEED TO SEND IT TO SOMEONE ELSE.... YOU ALREADY HAVE THE BADDEST GUN YOU CAN BUY. ... we warranty all of our work. and at no charge to you will fix your charging handle and it wont come off again. I have sent you emails and requested the Carrier for repair. Im not sure to what you intent to do by soliciting someone to do it better or questioning the quality of our work but our quality is bar none. Every welder at our shop, has welded ten plus years at a minimum and I assure you we have it down. and to the posters ...MPI a charging handle is laughable over kill this is not a critical weld. If you want particle it .. im dont think it would cost you 90 buck any more.

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MPI is not laughable. I know a charging handle is an attachment weld, but if it is breaking, then checking it for cracks won't hurt. If it has no cracks then it is breaking due to the metal getting brittle. It would only take 2 minutes to check it for cracks. Any real good weld shop should be able to mag particle inspect their welds.

Now I'm seriously thinking about just asking for a refund... Too bad Pauly isn't currently taking any orders sad.png what other vendors would you guys recommend for good quality job?

 

 

I have read enough... I told you, bring it in and we will weld it.. As far as better quality than us It aint going to happen. I am not sure why yours broke, but damn sure we can make it work for you I have done more than i can count and your seems to need some extra. However theres nothing that paully or any body else for that matter does better. NEED TO SEND IT TO SOMEONE ELSE.... YOU ALREADY HAVE THE BADDEST GUN YOU CAN BUY. ... we warranty all of our work. and at no charge to you will fix your charging handle and it wont come off again. I have sent you emails and requested the Carrier for repair. Im not sure to what you intent to do by soliciting someone to do it better or questioning the quality of our work but our quality is bar none. Every welder at our shop, has welded ten plus years at a minimum and I assure you we have it down. and to the posters ...MPI a charging handle is laughable over kill this is not a critical weld. If you want particle it .. im dont think it would cost you 90 buck any more.

Let me tell you something, about mag particle testing. Having worked in oil and gas industry for 13 years having supervised, QC and installed skid based equpiment ( everything from hydrogen, natural gas compressors units to firewater and sea water lift pumps) being built from the ground up,, mag particle is commonly outsourced by smaller shops and larger production facilites have on hand employess. But in every case it's used mainly for load bearing components with multiple pass welds, such as lifting lugs and main support members of skid beams. Doing a mag particle on this sort part isn't only laughable but prohibitavely expenisve. Your talking about a $90 installed and refinished part. What NDT crew is going to come out and do that and still make these parts afforadble?

Whats laughable is suggesting that somebody pay $500 for a tech to come out, or pay $3,000 to purchase used testing equpiment to examine a $90 part that only one out of countless others installed has broke. Admitidly this one broke twice, but it's not as if this isn't repariable and completely preventable. Go ahead find a shop that will install and mag particle it for you, basic shop rates are $80/hr and min 4hrs.

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And I already told you that I was sending it in. In fact I delivered it to your guys during the weekend at the gun show as you said I could do. I believe I have the right to "keep my options open", correct? I never once stated that you were the shop that worked on my gun or said anything to hurt your "image".All I did is ask for others opinions on this matter. That's all. I honestly don't care how its fixed, as long as the end result I better than what I currently have. Keep in mind this is the second time, so I if it happens again I will do you and myself a favor and simply ask for a refund.

 

Thanks...

 

 

 

 

Now I'm seriously thinking about just asking for a refund... Too bad Pauly isn't currently taking any orders :( what other vendors would you guys recommend for good quality job?

 

I have read enough... I told you, bring it in and we will weld it.. As far as better quality than us It aint going to happen. I am not sure why yours broke, but damn sure we can make it work for you I have done more than i can count and your seems to need some extra. However theres nothing that paully or any body else for that matter does better. NEED TO SEND IT TO SOMEONE ELSE.... YOU ALREADY HAVE THE BADDEST GUN YOU CAN BUY. ... we warranty all of our work. and at no charge to you will fix your charging handle and it wont come off again. I have sent you emails and requested the Carrier for repair. Im not sure to what you intent to do by soliciting someone to do it better or questioning the quality of our work but our quality is bar none. Every welder at our shop, has welded ten plus years at a minimum and I assure you we have it down. and to the posters ...MPI a charging handle is laughable over kill this is not a critical weld. If you want particle it .. im dont think it would cost you 90 buck any more.

Edited by MS-12

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I never once stated that you were the shop that worked on my gun or said anything to hurt your "image".All I did is ask for others opinions on this matter.

 

That's correct and if it wasn't for my big mouth the vendor never would have been mentioned. Apologies to the OP. What was once a very informative thread was derailed down the wrong path. I won't make that mistake again...

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I haven't been welding long, but I do well at it for what I need to get done and I recognize my limitations. HK sights and vertical charging handles are not my speed, so I've never tried either. If I were interested in either, I'm sure I could find a way to do it that was sound and looked proper. I have seen a charging handle come off and pop someone in their lip (I didn't do the work and don't ask). After seeing that, I decided that I would never do the welded vertical charging handle mod for anyone, for any reason, ever. Welding is different in some way every time, even if only slightly, and there are factors outside of the welder's control. Some people like the look and convenience, but the potential for failure exists. Understand that.

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I haven't been welding long, but I do well at it for what I need to get done and I recognize my limitations. HK sights and vertical charging handles are not my speed, so I've never tried either. If I were interested in either, I'm sure I could find a way to do it that was sound and looked proper. I have seen a charging handle come off and pop someone in their lip (I didn't do the work and don't ask). After seeing that, I decided that I would never do the welded vertical charging handle mod for anyone, for any reason, ever. Welding is different in some way every time, even if only slightly, and there are factors outside of the welder's control. Some people like the look and convenience, but the potential for failure exists. Understand that.

I'll gladly take credit for that.

The video you did years ago when that happened was part of the long term motivation that brought mine to where they currently are.

Currently the owner of that gun is running an autoplug, runs a bit more gas than 3 @ 093, shoots the gun often with all types of ammo and it's held up great, even though it's an older style of mount from before I really started building them up like I do now, right?

I've had 3 failures. One was Menace 667's, the one you speak of where the first, and last mid shaft weld that I'd done on a handle broke, the other was the first (my prototype piece) Racegun dogleg that I did, and the last was a left side charger before revamping the process on those... (Never weld to the most convenient part on the left side of the carrier when doing a left side charger. It's a but weld and gets too much shock. the best way to weld those is fillet welds and inside corner welds to build it up like this) ;

 

004-2.jpg

 

I personally dislike the left side chargers because gravel sized debris can enter if dropped while one is running, being as it's an open-gun design though.

 

 

As for the verticals, they CAN be made indestructible to the point that they'll outlast the rest of the carrier and rear trunnion if the gun's abused, but it takes a heck of a lot of time.

 

Posters above are correct about the larger connecting area to the carrier being key to durability. It's a different handle, therefore it must be completely re-engineered, built right and heat treated correctly. Here's some examples of increasing the mass 100% each way to be able to take the torsion stresses;

 

Chargerbasecomparison.jpg

 

378.jpg

 

VCH_zps468074c7.jpg

 

Mower%20007_zps43b7f5a0.jpg

 

 

The only issue is IT TAKES A HECK OF A LOT OF TIME TO DO EACH ONE, and to have them come out looking like they came from the factory with the handle takes even longer.

So much time, that it has about screwed me business-wise.

But the setup will last forever, or at least until someone abuses the gun & hammers the rear trunnion off or cracks the female end of carrier where the op-rod screws in, and at that point, the weapon won't work, but these handles will darn sure still be there in tact.

They can be made to last forever under all conditions, it's just a real bear and I'd venture to say that out of every mod we can do on these guns, it's the hardest one to do correctly.

Milling or turning stuff down is easy. One just needs the machines. Engineering then fabricating something like this that'll stand up to serious torsion stresses under abuse, out of the correct raw steel so the weld material blends well with the properties of both the carrier's steel and the handle's steel & fuses strong, then heat treating it right and finishing it right is a technically complex process. Especially when welding to 4140 if one wishes to eliminate the tendency for cold cracking.

I'd say 3 failures early on in the process development stages, then never having another single failure after hundreds more, including several on full length gas system SBS's is the proof in the pudding that they definitely can be made to hold up to normal usage, and even abuse.

YMMV of course.

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