Stuck in "Saiga-No-Cycle City"...need to catch first train out

[ZombieApoc1911 0]

Guys. I have the "My Saiga-12 isn't cycling" blues real bad.

 

Tell me it's "operator error" and not a gun problem. I am in StovePipe Central and I need help!

 

Here is the scoop. I have a new Saiga-12 (Upgraded by K-VAR Las Vegas. Imported by FIME). I went to the range with my 5 round mag and 10 and 12 round SGM magazines (both very difficult to get properly attached to the receiver by the way). Tried some Winchester Target Birdshot (8) and Federal Target (7.5). Both 2 3/4. The piston setting is on "2" as specified by user manual and all the forums and YouTube vids.

 

I had terrible results. 4 out of 5 rounds failed to eject. I had to pull them out one by one. The most rounds I got off without a jam was three (in the 5 round magazine).

 

I figure there is a break in period...'specially for the mags...but man I was disappointed. I plan to strip it down, clean and oil, take out the puc and remount it. I am going to put some 00 Buck through it too (on the "1" setting) and anticipate better luck there.

 

 

Gimme some advice. Please don't say "FedEx that POS back to K-VAR".

 

THANKS IN ADVANCE

 

[S12KS-K 40]

Drill the ports.

[Stansplace 414]

There is no reason to drill the ports first. There are tons of things you can do to it, I recommend cleaning it well, lubing it up, and shoot the hell out of it.

[cguiro 29]

Clean her up... I use a modified allen key and clean my ports out.. oil ur bolt and bcg rails up. Use the factory magazine and let her have it. Still having cycle issues after this buy a new plug and puck. No need to take off ur gas block and re drill ur gas ports just yet.

[gunman1 1,753]

Get some high brass ammo, load the factory mags, Shoot the hell out of it, you'll start to see metal shavings, clean them up and continue, maybe 100 - 200 rounds

 

I forgot to say welcome to the forum.

Edited March 3, 2013 by AA re-cvrd

[RED333 1,025]

Welcome to the forum, SHOOT IT A BIT, then come back and tell us how it went.

[sapper1371usmc 107]

Check the number of ports you currently have and measure their size. Do not start buying bandaids if the problem is obvious the gun is undergassed. Yes you can polish the internals, which can help to some degree. The port size listed on the forum is pretty much standard to have a reliable weapon. 3 ports at .093" and 4 ports at .078".

[bigd1979 23]

I have the same gun I would do what most said to do ,and what I did is take apart and lube it up nice. I had no issues wit mine with federal bulk on setting 2 with factory mag hopefully thata help ya out bud

[lbsrdi 1,078]

You say the mags are not going in easily, make sure that the mags are locking in and properly seated. This can cause feeding issues. If they are not seated properly fit them to your gun by fileing the mag. GL

[Barrage 33]

I have an SGL as well. I bought about 175 rounds of 00 buck, slugs, and various high-brass loads and blew through it all in one outing without much of a problem on setting #1, I think I had 2 FTE's. Now it will eat anything through stick mags, and most things from the MD20 (first 3 rounds usually need to be high-brass or it jams due to tension). So I'd recommend shooting the crap out of it first. Also, you can cycle the action a bunch in your free time and that may help a little. I think I did mine a few hundred times before I started shooting, but nothing made the same difference as when I took it out and shot it.

[Big John! 2,062]

Take some fine sandpaper or emory cloth to the rails enough to remove paint and smooth. I don't use oil on mine, I use grease. That said, after I smoothed my rails down, I got as much high brass as I could afford then went out and shot the hell out of it. BTW… I was pissed at my gun at that point so I ran that bitch dry and let it do it's own machine work. Didn't hurt it a bit.

 

Bottom line… If you want to shoot bulk pack stuff and you're already stove piping, you will need to profile the trigger and I'll bet you'll have to drill the ports. I'm thinking that to shoot low brass this is almost a given.

 

Do a search for a member here named GunFun and follow the links in his signature.

Here's GunFun's links:

 

+ How to do a decent trigger Job + 1 Finger Safety Mod
IMO, the best reliability PROCESS for new owners (Instead of break-in) + Other opinions worth reading --Pick a process and be methodical.

[ZombieApoc1911 0]

OK. Thanks Guys.

 

Couple follow-ups:

 

is 00 Brass sufficient? What is the cheapest shell I could use to be effective in breaking the gun in?

 

If the break in exercise doesn't work I will probably get KVAR in the loop as they need to fix it. Have them drill the ports.

 

DO you know of a good video on YouTube (or elsewhere) that shows the cleaning of the ports (and drilling of them)?

 

THANKS...and thanks for the welcome. I am fired up about the whole Saiga-12 thing...

[Capt Nemo 882]

00 buck is a high brass load unless it's "low recoil" or in some cases "tactical". Locally, we have Federal Vita Shock 2 3/4" slugs in great supply at $3.49 for 5. They're 1 oz slugs at 1600 fps. That should pound things out good and still be easy on the wallet.

Edited March 3, 2013 by Capt Nemo

[HammerofGod 9]

Don't be too afraid of the drilling your own ports thing; it's really pretty simple. Did one in less than 30 minutes, though they can really, really vary in difficulty of gas block removal.

Edited March 3, 2013 by HammerofGod

[Capt Nemo 882]

One thing might be to back the plug out one turn. That will expose the ports a little bit more.

[ZombieApoc1911 0]

OK. Great suggestions guys. I will pick up some non-tactical, high recoil and blast away.

 

I will keep ya'll posted.

 

thanks!

[sccritterkiller 473]

Take some fine sandpaper or emory cloth to the rails enough to remove paint and smooth. I don't use oil on mine, I use grease.

 

^^^ This also I polished the groves on the carrier that ride on the rails..I also polished the hammer and the bottom of carrier...don't go crazy just enough to take the paint off and smooth it out.....I have one gun that I have yet to fire high brass out of but it runs winchester universal no problems out of stick mags....It's all stock except for the basic conversion.

 

I would also take the plug and puck out and check the ports.

Edited March 4, 2013 by sccritterkiller

[ZombieApoc1911 0]

I was watching the Saiga-12 port drilling vids I found...they only touch upon the first port that sits right below the puck. Are the others (easily) accessible?

 

Shopping for brass 00 now to blast through it on #1.

[HammerofGod 9]

I was watching the Saiga-12 port drilling vids I found...they only touch upon the first port that sits right below the puck. Are the others (easily) accessible?

 

Shopping for brass 00 now to blast through it on #1.

 

With the gas block off, all of them will be exposed (however many your particular gun has). I've not seen any of the other configurations, but the four port models have the ports in a diamond shape. You should be able to get an idea of how many ports you have by just taking the puck out and eyeballing them through the hole in the bottom of the gas block. A dental mirror will remove all doubt.

 

I wouldn't try and drill anything with the gas block still in place; I saw a vid of a guy on youtube doing that.

Edited March 4, 2013 by HammerofGod

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

[ZombieApoc1911 0]

Got the puck out...I only see the ONE port. If I pull back the slide to look in farther with my flashlight snake I dont see any others. What am I missing?

[ZombieApoc1911 0]

Update. Got the puck out and I see the 4 very small holes inside the one main hole oriented in a diamond shape as HammerOG said above.

[sapper1371usmc 107]

Did you check the size? Not many guns come with large enough ports from the factory to reliably cycle Win Univ bulk pack, if thats your goal. YOu will need to completely remove the gas block though to access the ports. Once you get it off, if you want to do things in stages, I recommend starting at .073". If you only want to have to do once, .078" (5/64th drill bit) will probably get the job done.

[sccritterkiller 473]

Polish first then test....if that doesn't work try enlarging ports......You will be surprised how much polishing helps...I was

[z-mashin 1]

I am not trying to be a D**K but why would anyone want to take a Russian combat shotgun and shoot American s**t loads through it and complain that they dont cycle properly. We Americans have plenty of pump guns to burn S**t ammo through. Blow some hot buck shot and slugs through her On #1 setting and see how it works. If it doesnt than sell it and get a m590, should work fine-- haha. BTW my situation W/mine was opposite, all loads cycling on #1 setting. Heavy cycling w/ s**t loads on #1setting. I cut a 23 inch extra full barrel(.680id.) down to 18.5" to improved cyl(.720). Just now getting FTE with Winchester universal loads on both settings.Gun specs.-- 2001 manuf. 3 port 23 inch barrel(end of barrel to bolt face). This gun hit hard w/ crap loads on setting 1 before barrel chop. I am just now feeling comfortable I am not damaging gun by shooting it(alot of contact w/rear trunnion).It seems like every one of these are different but they are designed for large geese and buffalo--- slugs and buck shot. a point that seems to be missed.

[sapper1371usmc 107]

I am not trying to be a D**K but why would anyone want to take a Russian combat shotgun and shoot American s**t loads through it and complain that they dont cycle properly. We Americans have plenty of pump guns to burn S**t ammo through. Blow some hot buck shot and slugs through her On #1 setting and see how it works. If it doesnt than sell it and get a m590, should work fine-- haha. BTW my situation W/mine was opposite, all loads cycling on #1 setting. Heavy cycling w/ s**t loads on #1setting. I cut a 23 inch extra full barrel(.680id.) down to 18.5" to improved cyl(.720). Just now getting FTE with Winchester universal loads on both settings.Gun specs.-- 2001 manuf. 3 port 23 inch barrel(end of barrel to bolt face). This gun hit hard w/ crap loads on setting 1 before barrel chop. I am just now feeling comfortable I am not damaging gun by shooting it(alot of contact w/rear trunnion).It seems like every one of these are different but they are designed for large geese and buffalo--- slugs and buck shot. a point that seems to be missed.

Why? Because we are Americans and we have the freedom to make our own choices. If you enjoy shooting S**T rounds through your pump, by all means. Go for it. I, along with multiple others will run our S12s with Winchester Universal functions because its cheap and we choose to. It doesnt take much to be able to cycle the bulk birdshot 100% reliably if you do a little work here and there on your saiga. I'd rather save my buck and slugs for when it counts. I enjoy blasting through an MD20, but only when it costs me $0.22 a round.

[ZombieApoc1911 0]

A friend of mine had a thought - try some game loads with 1 ounce + of powder - shot irrelevant - that will break the Saiga in well at a lower cost than the 00 Buck or slugs. He reloads a lot of 2.75 length shells with extra powder for higher speeds. He tries to exceed 1300 fps. He thought this might get the job done for me. Is this a viable affordable option? I might have him ship me a couple dozen.

 

I talked to K-Var and FIME to let them know it wasn't working as sold - of course they promised it would work on #1 and #2. They are salesman after all.

 

I got mine all taken down and greased up real good and ordered a bunch of the last available cheapish (on the planet apparently) RIO 00 Buck and Slugs to try out by the way. I will post my results Friday.

 

thanks guys for the spirited discussion!

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

try this link to help.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/2457-saiga-gas-system/

[Trespasser 7]

I don't use oil on mine, I use grease.

 

 

I got mine all taken down and greased up real good...

 

I do not recommend using grease. Grease is thicker than oil by design and will actually provide more resistance--especially in colder temperatures. I would also be worried about grease trapping powder residue and thickening even more. After a while, you may end up with a gun packed full of sludge if not cleaned often.

 

Plus, our trusty service manuals tells us to wipe the components with a rifle oil soaked and wrung out rag. In other words: add a light coating of Rem oil.

[Saiga13 1]

Are you shouldering it? I had the same issue when hip firing a new izzy.