GT Marathon 1 Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Hello to all ...new here...right to the point ..i bought a Saiga .223 couple weeks ago brought to California to go shooing with a friend of mine ..well we had 50+wonderful shots with Fed .223 and then tried the Tula .223 ..first shot GREAT ..2nd did not load ...cleared rifle ..removed magazine ..and noticed a Chip fell outta the receiver ..stunned ..we took it apart on the bench and noticed on the BOLT a chip WAS MISSING good sized CHIP.hadsomehow ..well just came off ..im sorry atm i dont have pics ...iam still in Cali at my brothers house ..but should be home soon ..and long as its not a total pain in the arse ..will gladly post them ..i still have the chip it matches the bolt perfectly ..sad to say ..SO ..what could i do here ...the only company that seems to sell em is K-VAR ..and of course they dont have any in stock ..i will be calling them on monday to see if.when they might have some more ..i understand pics whould be more helpful i but i still gotta ask ...are there any more companys that import these parts ..btw the chip is on the side ..not the face..golly i wish knew the "Shop Talk" on this ..anyhow any input whould be help ..i only got 50 rounds out of it.loved em all ..but yeah i a bit ticked ...btw extracter and pin are fine ..just that dang bolt . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gregomega 929 Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 (edited) Pics please. maybe check out apex. they might have a replacement. Also if thats not an option, maybe see if Cobra custom can weld it up some for you. not sure if he will or not or how this chip is affecting fucntion but it never hurts to ask. There is also a guy with the handle MarkW1 that sell ak74 bolts for the 5.45 that are known to work in 5.56's. Not clear on all the details of that so read up on that but its also an option. Edited March 3, 2013 by AZG Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GT Marathon 1 Posted March 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Roger that on the Pics ..iam pretty sure folks are gonna want to see this ..iam outta state atm and dont have a camera/phone ..just how i do things... but when i get back i will gladly post them .. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
liberty -r- death 1,445 Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 I have read that a 5.45 Saiga bolt will work. I have not tried this myself, but others have mentioned it in the past. Chime in fellas. Mancat may know this one, he knows his stuff when it comes to internals. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigdust80 10 Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 With any new bolt your gonna have to check the headspace on the rifle. Firing it without checking headspace can lead to a kaboom. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted March 4, 2013 Report Share Posted March 4, 2013 Just curious, what mags are you using? Has this rifle been converted? Is the chip on the locking lugs? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GT Marathon 1 Posted March 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2013 Factory 10 rounders nope the rifle is not converted ..i got her taken apart ...the chip is on the left side... opposite of the extractor ..iam not very well schooled on the Saiga ..yet ..but i do have the part right in front of me ..i think you can say that the chip is on a bottom of the "LUG" once again on the left side of the bolt ..when i get home im gonna try and get some pics up ..hopefuly tomorrow ..weather permiting Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GT Marathon 1 Posted March 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2013 Well there it is ..pretty sad sight ..dont ya think ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted March 4, 2013 Report Share Posted March 4, 2013 What kind of feeding problems are you experiencing? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GT Marathon 1 Posted March 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2013 well just that one round ..it failed to load ..thats it ..but when i removed the mag is when we noticed the "CHIP"..forgot to mention we had AR/AK builder shooting next to us ..he had an interest in the Saiga .223 befor we even took the first shot ..when he saw the chip out of the bolt he said " i whouldnt shoot that "..iam tempted to give it a "Test"..but i dont think i will..i got a feeling it need a least one trip a "AK-Guy" ..plus i have noticed that my piston is now a bit loose ..is this normal for AK/Saiga ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
haugpatr 972 Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 A loose piston is normal for AK's, no worry there, I will defer to others ob the bolt issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 Id say the piston was a tad loose to begin with. A little play is normal. But from the pic, it looks as if it may still rotate into battery. The chip may have caused the malfunction, but its hard to say. Im curious to see the guide rails and front trunnion pics of the chamber area. I wonder if a slightly bent ejector rail could have caused this? Poor heat treatment? Hell it could have been fucked up from the beginning and took around 50 rds to break it off. Hard to say at this point. But it does look as if something came into contact with it while it was in a rearward motion though. I dont really see it separating when coming out of battery, as it likely would have continued feeding, but anything is possible. The only problem with attempting to shoot the gun again, is running the risk of causing more damage. Have you noticed anything else on the bolt or related areas? Stress marks? Hairline cracks? etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GT Marathon 1 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 (edited) On the loose piston Thank You ...kinda had a strange feeling they where like that ...russian..loose ..yeah makes sense ...was tight when i first got it ...but not anymore ..not super wobbly or anything ..just a bit loose yeah i wont be shooting it till i can get a pro to look at it ...i got boxed up atm ..still somewhat unpacking here ..ill give it a good look over the whole rifle when iam done with family ..btw i did check the chamber and bore ..i have not noticed anything ..was worried i might have had more debris in there..looked fine Edited March 5, 2013 by GT Marathon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GT Marathon 1 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 Took it apart agian ..no not seeing any cracks ..stresses ...nothing bent so far i can still pull the charging handle ..rather not do it atm ..but it will dry fire ..bit of brass shavings from the Federal .223 ..but thats it ..ill give a through cleaing tomorrow ..and look throu it some more ...just in case i missed something Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 Hard to say dude. It could have just been a faulty bolt. Does it feel like its hanging up anywhere when manually working the action? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 Isn't tula and wolf generally known for being weaker than Federal stuff? This is just a sad thread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brian M1 50 Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 (edited) Wouldn't be the first time I've heard of a sloppy bolt. My Saiga .223 had/has one. It was so bad the bolt would shift enough that the ejector wasn't making enough contact with the case rim to toss it. Smith said both the bolt was too thin, and the carrier too large (the combination of extremes). All he did was tig some added beef to the ejector and she runs like a champ now (hundreds of rounds later). That's one of the issues with Saiga's... they are usually "old stock" sitting at shops. So when one has issues, the shop won't be bothered, since it's "old stock", and I searched high and low for who exactly is responsible for Saiga warranty work now, and came up with zilch. I'd suggest taking it a reputable AK smith. It will be faster, probably be done right, you can inspect the work at pickup, and (since there won't be shipping) it won't be that bad $ wise. Edited March 5, 2013 by Brian M1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerry52 893 Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 where did you buy it ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 (edited) Take the bolt to an automotive machine shop and see if they'll magnaflux it.. No joke. I suspect that the start casting used for the bolt had a micro-fissure in it that came from the factory. It likely was beat to completion through that section of the locking lug by the forces between the two lugs as you fired the rifle. That area of the bolt is not a part of it that should be making stress contact with any part of the rifle while operating. This is why I suspect that the crack was already there in the steel, and that nothing you did, nor the type of ammo you were using, contributed to the failure. Just a total shot in the dark though. I have no way of knowing for sure. If the bolt checks out on a magnaflux test with no more cracks, run it and see if it works. Have the chunk welded back in if you can, but it would need to be a very good and clean weld at the side of the lug failure, not the rear or front. The biggest problem I could see you having is that the bolt may not ride the left-side rail correctly and could have some trouble going into battery or clearing the ejector. The carrier does a lot of the work of keeping things lined up, so you may have no problem at all. The bolt failure will not affect headspace or firing function, it only has the potential to affect rail and initial battery alignment. IF you really want to replace the bolt, you may have trouble getting a replacement Saiga .223 bolt. They are sometimes available from K-VAR - note that the Bulgarian 5.56 bolts are not compatible with the Saiga. It needs to be a Russian/Saiga .223/5.56 bolt. You can also use an AK-74 5.45 bolt, but you will lose the spring-loaded firing pin. Many people believe that this is a problem due to the risk of slamfires with soft-primered .223 ammo, but many have never had this issue, including almost every AR-15 owner - they use a free-float pin as well. Either bolt would need to be headspaced to the rifle by a competent AK gunsmith. It would also be helpful to have a photo of the rifle's trunnion, from several angles if possible. Focus on the left side of the front trunnion - this is where the failure occured. Edited March 5, 2013 by mancat 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GT Marathon 1 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 (edited) Hello again ! i purchased the rifle from an auction site it was located in NY-State ..it was imported by Legion ..who after emailing them has stated to me that they will replace the BOLT they get their next shipment ..VERY HAPPY there ..hope that dont start a trend or anything ..so here are some pics of the left side of the rifle trunnion ...hope i got the angles you folks asked..some of the pics should have been a bit clearer ..hmm..as far the action goes ..no i dont feeling hang ups ..the same when i first got it .. Edited March 5, 2013 by GT Marathon 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 Glad the importer is going to take care of you. Thanks for sharing the pics, and sorry that you have to deal with this. Looks like you have a flat trunnion. I havent seen on on a .223 yet. Thats cool. Everything else appears normal from what I can see. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 the earlier .223s without receiver dimples often had a flat trunnion. no reason or rhyme as to why. I wish mine had one so I could just use a standard milsurp 5.45 bullet guide, but it would have to have the bolt camming ramp machined off any way. I may mod one later on to fit the round trunnion. any way.. your receiver insides look fine. no damage, no wear marks. bad luck on the bolt - it's really the first I've ever heard of a Saiga bolt of any type failing. the only AKs that I've ever seen bolt failures in, are Chinese AKs. take the replacement bolt from Legion and have it professionally headspaced. from what I've read, if they request to have you send your rifle to them, you may not see it again for a very long time, or may just receive a new replacement. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GT Marathon 1 Posted March 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 These things happen ..just another learnin experience ..thanks for the advice folks ..the Rep from LegionUSA asked me to remind him ina about a month ..so April 1st ill be E-mailing them ..find a AK-smith in the meantime ..give it month+ship time ..drop off to AK-Guy..then prolly another month ...for Head-Space ..plus General Saftey Inspect ...be ready to rock ..by May..possibly June?.."Back to the Mini-14's"..for now ..The Rugers have not given me any problems ...maybe a uptight new mag here and there that might need a bit more break in .. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 You may be surprised in the turn around time, but then again its hard to say. Ive never dealt with them, nor had to. any way.. your receiver insides look fine. no damage, no wear marks. bad luck on the bolt - it's really the first I've ever heard of a Saiga bolt of any type failing. Same here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brian M1 50 Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 That's great news about the importer helping you out! Mine was an RAA (which hasn't been the primary importer since '09) and wanted nothing to do with it. They wouldn't even tell me who did warranty work anymore and Said to contact Cadiz Gun Works. Cadiz said they haven't done "warranty" work for Saiga since '09 (when RAA left). It was a constant run-around. The shop wanted no part of it too, as it had been sitting for yrs and they didn't even know who to send it to anymore. You got lucky! Glad they helped you out! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GT Marathon 1 Posted March 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 Thanks Again..yes i do feeling lucky ..i emailed Izmash K-var Apex RAA and then Legion ..they where the only one who responded ..and in like 30 mins !!!!! ..WOW...gotta say thou till the part is my hand and off to the shop ..its not over for The Saga of My Saiga .223 But Im counting this as a blessing from Legion and thank you all again for your input ..prolly wont post much on this thread till i get the part ..when i do ill update ...PS iam sorry to hear that Brain M1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GT Marathon 1 Posted April 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 Well heres my update for now ..its been about a month so i sent Legion a E-mail.. and ATM they dont have any Rifles and iam assuming Parts at this time they told me they will update me when deliverys come in but ATM they dont even have any shipping dates ...So...iam bummed out ..iam sure i will in time replace this bolthead but i dont see this happening for some time..never know maybe they will get some stuff in ..trying to keep my chin up here ...oh boy i paid alot of money for this rifle Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 (edited) Personally man I would find a way to safely test fire the thing and see what happens. As I stated earlier, that part of the bolt locking lug isn't part of the bolt's lockup, so it should fire safely. The question is, will the bolt properly ride the receiver rails and allow it to cycle? It may run just fine. The bolt carrier does a lot of the work of holding and guiding the bolt. I'm not suggesting you keep it that way forever, but if you can safely fire it, why not enjoy it? I realize a lot of people freak out at the idea of firing a rifle with a damaged bolt. Just once again, that specific spot on the bolt in no way plays a part in containing the detonation of the the chambered round. The shear forces are at the rear faces of the two lateral lugs on the bolt. Edited April 3, 2013 by mancat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GT Marathon 1 Posted April 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 (edited) i gotta say i have been thinking about ..just not sure how to go about testing it safely ..i bought this Saiga very recently ..and paid a pathetic some of 819$ for it ..plus Shipping/BC/Trans ..so off the top of my head that 950$+ so far ..and adding the 4 extra ten round factory mags at the un fair price of 29.99..lol one unit still had the old 19.99 price tag ...PLUS i got 4-30 round Surefires which where only 26.99 at my FFL's Shop !!!!...AND then i got my Midwest IND Side Mount ..lets not forget ths shipping with the extras ..cept the Surefires ..Phew ..i put alot of money down glad i didnt buy a 2nd Aimpoint PRO for it ..got one on my Mini-14 love it .. ..not sure here ..one side i spent alot of cash ..dont wanna waste it..but on the other hand dont wanna possibley screw it up even more ...man what a Drag ...one way or another iam gonna patiently wait on Legion for a replacement ..seems that might take longer then i want it to ..gonna keep looking for other companys that might have parts ..i thinks this is gonna take a while ..least the rifle is fun to look at..btw pardon the money whining .. Edited April 3, 2013 by GT Marathon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerry52 893 Posted April 3, 2013 Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 If it cycles a round ,go for it and shoot it .Its an ak and a very good one at that Was the gun used or new? If it was new the seller should make good on it. This is why I do not buy a gun online! If it cycles I agree with Citizen that you should try and shoot it. By the look of the bolt in you picture I would say you should be okay i have seen worse. And if you do not want to shoot it you can send me you ammo and I will shoot it for you . Ha ha Good luck buddy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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