cutting the tang

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

Im not seeing it. unfold the adapter and measure from behind the flange of the Internal adapter and measure to the outside of the "male" portion on the ACE adapter.

Actually, the combo is almost exactly 0.9"... I can't do a thing about the camera parallax, though I tried my best to show the situation fairly.

 

In the interest of good debate, and not just being snooty, I can't bust out the digital calipers if you think the forum would benefit from the increased accuracy.

 

It's dead flush with the closed position that I took the picture of... I may not understanding your question?

 

I'm about ready to order a Bonesteel ('cause I like them anyhow based on their forum activity as a strong vendor) and measure both up myself. It's not as if I'm never gonna buy another Saiga!!!

Edited March 8, 2013 by Maxwelhse

[sapper1371usmc 107]

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

0.6875", best as my eyes and tape measure can tell.

 

That would be the equivalent of the length of the firearm - tang + folded stock.

[obiwanbonjovi 337]

That distance does not apply to overall length. The pivot, and the entire stock side of the hinge protrude rearward past that point

 

 

Ace 9" sidefolding skeleton stock vs. Bonesteel Arms/Cnc Warrior Warsaw length galil style folding stock

 

 

Weight as installed including mounting hardware (I did not subtract weight of cut off tang required for ACE install)

Ace 16.54 OZ

Bonesteel 14.50 OZ

total width of hinge while extended

Ace 1.92"

Bonesteel 1.73"

Total width of hinge while folded

Ace 3.24"

Bonesteel 2.65"

Length while folded, measured from rear of receiver

Ace .90"

Bonesteel 1.36"

folded stock to receiver center to center

Ace 1.8"

Bonesteel 1.45"

Ace Sidefolding M4 stock vs Bonesteel Arms/Cnc Warrior sidefolding M4 stock

Also compared Bonesteel Arms/Cnc Warrior Left side widefolding stock for use on rifles with side rails(currently standard on left folding VEPR stocks, coming soon for Ak models) (Bonesteel standard folding M4 stocks do not fold parallel on receivers with side rail, as can be seen in picture)

Weight as installed including mounting hardware , not stock installed just folding m4 tube(I did not subtract weight of cut off tang required for ACE install)

Ace 11.89 OZ

Bonesteel 10.05 OZ

total width of hinge while extended

Ace 1.92"

Bonesteel 1.73"

Total width of hinge while folded

Ace 3.13"

Bonesteel 2.75"

Bonesteel Left side wide folding 3.09"

Length while folded, measured from rear of receiver

Ace .90"

Bonesteel 1.36"

folded stock to receiver center to center

Ace 1.8"

Bonesteel 1.45"

Bonesteel Left side wide folding 1.8"

Length of stock fully collapsed, measured from rear of receiver

Ace 8.75"

Bonesteel 8.5"

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

 

That's the best folder! Lots of work though i'd imagine.

I can go from a complete S12 to pressing rivets in about 2 hours. I developed a system that allows me to do it quickly and accurately. My first one took me about twice that, lol.

 

Sweet! Now i know who to send mine too

Not yet, lol. I don't have an 07 FFL or business membership here. Someday....

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

1.5 - 1 = .5 so according to your tape measure the answer is .5" , or if more accurately measured .46"

 

(actual numbers are 1.36" for the tang, and .90" for the receiver block and folding mechanism)

 

Our hinges do not stick past the tang at all.

 

 

Things get a lot more interesting when the tang comes off....

 

DIY AK100 rear block 10.jpg

 

 

=

 

 

sbs retrofit cut.jpg

 

 

Intalling a 100 series folder is almost always a good idea, side mount optics or cost are the only 2 reasons not to.

+1

Well, a third reason not to do it could be that a lot of people hack them up, lol

[dubya 198]

1.5 - 1 = .5 so according to your tape measure the answer is .5" , or if more accurately measured .46"

 

(actual numbers are 1.36" for the tang, and .90" for the receiver block and folding mechanism)

 

Our hinges do not stick past the tang at all.

 

 

Things get a lot more interesting when the tang comes off....

 

[img=http://forum.saiga-12.com//public/style_images/master/attachicon.gif]DIY AK100 rear block 10.jpg

 

 

=

 

 

[img=http://forum.saiga-12.com//public/style_images/master/attachicon.gif]sbs retrofit cut.jpg

 

 

Intalling a 100 series folder is almost always a good idea, side mount optics or cost are the only 2 reasons not to.

+1

Well, a third reason not to do it could be that a lot of people hack them up, lol

 

Definitely cost for me. I found a used 100 series folding kit but the guy wanted around $380 IIRC, that's how much i paid for the damn gun. Too much

[Cbass 23]

It's like getting circumcised, once you do it, you feel better

 

and better looking hardware is more compatible with you

 

 

It's like getting circumcised, once you do it, you feel better

 

and better looking hardware is more compatible with you

More like a vasectomy. Its like losing your manhood. Can likely be reversed if you change your mind, but why go through all the hassle.

 

Man that is good shit right there. Thanks for the laugh guys

[gunfun 3,931]

I don't get what the big deal is. Both are good ways to do it. Also tangs aren't hard to get or expensive. You can change your mind later, and rivet a new trunnion in. done.

 

Honestly a half inch isn't going to change my mind one way or the other. I am perfectly happy with my ace based setup, but I would probably be happy with bonesteel too. AK 100 is nice for a rifle, but not to my taste on a shotgun. RPK type folder is a bit nicer still. Lesson? if you get anything other than a tapco, you are going to be happy.

[netpackrat 566]

One advantage of the ACE setup that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread, is the versatility to change it around if your preferences change. The Bonesteel is nice, but you have to pick which way you want it to fold when you order it. If you change your mind later, and want it to fold the other way, you get to buy an entire new stock setup. ACE/modular system, you undo a few screws, put it the way you want it, and then tighten them back up. Cost = zero dollars.

 

Another advantage is the vertically elongated screw holes in the modular hinges, and multiple sets of threaded holes in some of the receiver blocks, which allow you to tailor the comb height to fit the shooter, plus the wider variety of stock options (since you don't have to limit yourself to just what ACE offers). If you are at all creative you can even make your own, and have something that's exactly how you want it. With the Bonesteel, your comb height is whatever Bonesteel thinks it should be. Your option is to add a cheek riser, and the cheek riser options for those style stocks all suck, unless you buy the high dollar Magpul butt stock with the built in adjustable riser to go with the buffer tube style Bonesteel (no denying that would be a primo setup)

 

And besides that, I just think that the cut-tang style conversion is cleaner looking, and it's marginally shorter when folded, but that's a personal preference based mostly on aesthetics. Functionally you're back to arguing about which is the better hinge, which can go on forever. I will be the first to tell you that the modular hinges currently available have their drawbacks, and I have encountered some of them. But for the most part, those drawbacks are overblown, and they are offset by other advantages of the modular system over Bonesteel's folders.

 

For some reason, some people like to talk bad about stocks that are bolted together, but I've never seen or heard of any instances where those bolts failed, if they were properly installed. The fact of the matter is, those little 10-32 socket head screws are hell for stout, and short of either not getting them properly tightened, or a ham-handed orangutan overtorquing them, there's not much to go wrong with them. So, I'm calling bullshit on that line of attack. They're not a drawback, they are an advantage that allows some adjustability, and mixing and matching of components to suit user preference.

 

Please don't get me wrong, I think Bonesteel makes an excellent product. I recently helped a buddy build up his VEPR, and after having spent too much money to buy it, he was not willing at all to permanently alter it by removing the tang. That wouldn't have been my choice, but I understood. We put a Bonesteel unit on his rifle, and it works very well indeed, and I think it will serve him well for a long time to come. My friend is absolutely satisfied with it, so far. I posted pictures of it in Bonesteel's section of this forum, in case anybody is interested in a look.

 

Bottom line, is both are good. Each has its advantages, and disadvantages. Saying that one "rulez" or the other is lame, or making reference to surgically altering one's genetalia are stupid.

[pedal2alloy 206]

Regarding the old tang debate, I guarantee that you won't find anyone who wanted to put back the tang on a tang-less gun.

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

Obi: I see the point now. Excellent write up and pictures.

[sapper1371usmc 107]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="pedal2alloy" data-cid="873572" data-time="1362762424"><p>

Regarding the old tang debate, I guarantee that you won't find anyone who wanted to put back the tang on a tang-less gun.</p></blockquote>

 

How much you want to bet on that? I ended up selling one of my past s12s just so I could buy another. I had it in my mind I wanted a wood-stocked gun and dinzags rsb mod for that classic ak look.

[gunfun 3,931]

NetRat's post 19 is pretty much exactly how I felt about it.

 

Particularly the stuff about bolt-on stocks. They aren't going to fail. Ever.

 

What I would want varies depending on the overall build. If I bought a Vepr12, I'd probably just get one of Bonesteel's

 

That wouldn't give me the modularity to use the cool furniture I made for my 109. I don't want to get rid of that for a little cleaner hinge.

[obiwanbonjovi 337]

Particularly the stuff about bolt-on stocks. They aren't going to fail. Ever.

 

 

 

While I agree the 10-32 screws will almost always be fine if properly installed(aye, there's the rub).

I believe I have heard the "never fail" prediction before

 

 

I would never expect them to fail, but I still don't like them, as to me they reek of aftermarket. I have not seen a military rifle that has a buttstock bolted on with machine screws, and no other mechanical means of support.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I'm not sure exactly what we are supposed to be looking at. Are the hinges supposed to be lined up and is there some conclusion were are to draw from the positioning of the everything else? I don't quite get it.

[obiwanbonjovi 337]

I'm not sure exactly what we are supposed to be looking at. Are the hinges supposed to be lined up and is there some conclusion were are to draw from the positioning of the everything else? I don't quite get it.

no conclusions to be drawn, just a general comparison of the 2

[gunfun 3,931]

Last I checked, you had a business that sells aftermarket parts...

 

 

If people are really worried about 10/32 screws, there a few easy things to do about it with an ace block. The easiest is to tap a couple more holes in the internal stock adapter or welded plate. There is room for about 4 screws there even keeping a little bit of vertical movement.

 

for all the internet debate about screws vs rivets vs welds... They all work and they can all suck. What matters is whether the individual install was done well, and that there is a substantial amount of metal holding things together.

[sweetcostarica 18]

As far as I'm concerned, it's not supposed to be there anyhow. To me, it's like cutting a cancerous lump off of my dog. Needs to be done...

 

It also insults my intelligence by knowing that it was once part of the "sporter" configuration.

 

Wow! I never heard such a strong stand about the tang. Maxwelhse all my AK 47s and Saiga 12s have this tang and I have thought about buying and bought some high quality gear that use the tang on this platform.

 

Could you explain in detail about why the tang on my weapons are: "not supposed to be there anyhow".

 

signed: Confused S12 forum member

[Sdustin 578]

I've had an ace folder for a few years and it's great. I hand a m70 with an underfolder and id rate the ace much higher than the military issue under folder.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Ak Monty

[Sdustin 578]

I think maxwelhse has little to no experience with the ak platform to make that statement. Unless he's looking at his tab on the bottom and thinking that's the "tang" other wise he's flat wrong.

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

If you chose to read the entire thread, you would have noticed that I never once considered a non-folding AK..

 

So you're right.. I've never looked at your WASR.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Here is photographic proof that the tang isn't supposed to be there anyhow.... with a folder.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2013 by evlblkwpnz

[Sdustin 578]

Haha yea not supposed to be there in the last 10 years before that it was a wire folder with the tang or an underfolder. And IMO the underfolders look really "cool" but for use are junk. And yes I'd love to have an AK100 folder but I don't feel like spending over half what the weapon costs for just the folder. Hell the only thing I think is worth 400+ is optics/lasers/NV.

[dubya 198]

As far as I'm concerned, it's not supposed to be there anyhow. To me, it's like cutting a cancerous lump off of my dog. Needs to be done... It also insults my intelligence by knowing that it was once part of the "sporter" configuration.

Wow! I never heard such a strong stand about the tang. Maxwelhse all my AK 47s and Saiga 12s have this tang and I have thought about buying and bought some high quality gear that use the tang on this platform. Could you explain in detail about why the tang on my weapons are: "not supposed to be there anyhow". signed: Confused S12 forum member

Your tang is no bigger than anyone else's. Why did you post a picture again ?

 

Haha yea not supposed to be there in the last 10 years before that it was a wire folder with the tang or an underfolder. And IMO the underfolders look really "cool" but for use are junk. And yes I'd love to have an AK100 folder but I don't feel like spending over half what the weapon costs for just the folder. Hell the only thing I think is worth 400+ is optics/lasers/NV.

Oh.

[misterT 174]

O.K. so now is everyone going to whip them out and compare to see who has the biggest one? Remember this is all just personnel preference there really is no right or wrong answer to this sort of question.

 

By they way my tang is bigger than yours..........................................by .000015"

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

O.K. so now is everyone going to whip them out and compare to see who has the biggest one? Remember this is all just personnel preference there really is no right or wrong answer to this sort of question.

 

By they way my tang is bigger than yours..........................................by .000015"

You guys know me, I like small things.... your tangs are all bigger than mine. I'm getting excited! LEMME SEE DAT BIG TANG!

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Haha yea not supposed to be there in the last 10 years before that it was a wire folder with the tang or an underfolder. And IMO the underfolders look really "cool" but for use are junk. And yes I'd love to have an AK100 folder but I don't feel like spending over half what the weapon costs for just the folder. Hell the only thing I think is worth 400+ is optics/lasers/NV.

AK100 series folders have been around since the late '70s. They are the most compact and stable folder that was ever issued, not to mention the most like a fixed WARSAW stock. They aren't perfect, but I like them better than the current aftermarket offerings. I think they are well worth the effort and expense. I don't care for the SVDS folder though. Triangle or poly feels like home to me.

[sweetcostarica 18]

Remember this is all just personnel preference there really is no right or wrong answer to this sort of question.

 

+1

This is one reason I wanted clarification from Maxwelhse. He was so dogmatic I thought he could have been joking.

 

Even if original folders were made without tangs why would it be bad or speak of the tang as a "cancerous lump". IMO to use a big or small tang on the AK platform is to get the best of both worlds (folder and fixed stock options galore).

 

His strong stand on this topic was/is illogical.

Edited March 12, 2013 by sweetcostarica

[sweetcostarica 18]

Answer to below question: because I could.

 

Your tang is no bigger than anyone else's. Why did you post a picture again ?