New guy with 12 guage question

[ARRH86 0]

Hey this is my first post as you can see.

 

I would like to buy a Saiga 12 guage.

 

I know they make a 2"3/4 version and a 3" version.

 

What is the difference and what does it mean exactly? I am somewhat new to shotguns in general.

 

 

Can I fire either type of ammo through either gun, and will both magazines work in either gun or not?

 

If the ammo is not interchangeable which is better? Which is more common and which is cheaper?

 

Also, the gun comes full open choke correct? So I need to buy a choke set from IZMASH if I would like them?

 

Thanks for any and all help.

[Gaddis 1,689]

Umm, not trying to sound brutal here, but maybe you should study up a bit on shotgun options and terminology before you go out and buy one (at least so you don't get hosed by any dishonest gun dealers that might be lurking out there).

 

A 3" chamber usually means that both 2-3/4" and 3" shells can be safely fired thru it (you have to be careful that you understand any gas regulator settings that might apply to your particular shotgun though). Might have a bad day shooting a 3" shell when your shotgun is set in the 2-3/4" mode. BTW - to answer your question, I personally find that 2-3/4" shotgun shells (12 gauge) are usually the easiest to find and a bit cheaper to boot (and probably all you will ever need power-wise for everyday shooting).

 

As for choke constrictions (I'm no expert here!), there is a definate difference between full and open (also sometimes referred to as "cylinder" choke, I believe!). Full chokes usually have more constriction to them. I'm not sure about strange, obscure (old) foreign shotguns though (they might not follow current Western manufacturing standards on them).

[KySoldier 2]

There are different Saiga barrels, these are the ones I've seen....

 

Fixed choke (good for hunting, but no slugs!)

 

Smooth Bore (Fire anything)

 

Smooth Bore with threaded endcap (too add threaded accessories)

 

Interchangable chokes (hunting/defence)

 

 

I'm wondering how you can tell if your Saiga can fire 3in shells, I don't know if mine can!?

[NedPepper 0]

I'm wondering how you can tell if your Saiga can fire 3in shells, I don't know if mine can!?

 

I don't believe a 3" shell will fit unless the gun was chambered for them as well as 2 3/4 shells.

 

I keep finding excuses to go to one of my local sporting goods stores. They have 7 Saigas, in different variations, behind the glass. I want to convert a 410 sooooo bad.

 

"Just looking..again."

[Bvamp 604]

KySoldier:

 

With any shotgun you can take an unsharpened pencil or dowel when you have your reciever apart and slide it into the chamber against the side of the chamber until you catch the lip. mark the pencil, and measure it. If there is no lip, its best to stick to 2 3/4". You can also use a 3" piece on guns you cant get a large pencil in and see if it lines up with the end of the chamber or recesses into it.

 

Edit: Even though shotshell chamberings have the extra chamber space like Gaddis pointed out, MOST shotguns will have a small lip on this part of the chamber. Now that Im looking at my Saiga (forgot all about that point), it doesnt have this lip on mine. My other 12's have it though. Go figure. Im assuming anyway that because there are the two different gas settings on the Saiga, 3" has been included in the gun's design.

Edited April 3, 2004 by Bvamp

[Gaddis 1,689]

Um, it's my understanding that all Saiga-12's can handle 3" shells (if the gas regulator cap has "1" & "2" settings on it).

 

As for whether a 3" shell can fit into a shotgun designed with only a 2-3/4" chamber, the answer is yes they can. A 2-3/4" chamber is bored so that when a 2-3/4" shell is fired in it, there is a little extra space milled into the front of the chamber where the area that is usually crimped on a unfired shell can open up in to (there's a technical name (shotgunner's jargon) for it I can't think of now?). Anyway, this "extra space" is big enough for a 3" shell to drop into, but then the crimped area on the 3" shell (when fired) would not have enough room then to open up fully as it's designed to (can lead to an unpleasant situation!).

[Silverfox 0]

as far as i know , all saiga 12's and .410's will take both 2 3/4 and 3in. length shells ( and has an adjustable gas chamber to compensate recoil for each size ) ..i think just the 20ga. model is limited to 2 3/4in. shells only....the chamber spec. is located on the receiver body..between the rivets between the magazine well and the ejection port , below the charging handle....mine is stamped 12x76 18,3 ... the 12x76 meaning 12ga.x76mm , or , 3 in. ...(apparently they round down from 76.2mm)... not sure what the 18,3 signifies...with the 12ga. you can use OR MIX shells of different lengths (2 3/4 AND 3in. shells) in the same magazine , but with the .410 you need 2 different mags to use the different length shells ( 2 3/4 OR 3in. magazines )..

the threaded barrel models (19in barrel) come with a 'cyl.choke' tube which you can fire whatever you like thru , other threaded chokes are available thru EAA( link below )...the non-threaded barrel models (over 19in. barrel ) usually come with a 'full choke' , and so are not the best choice if you plan to fire slugs..the 'full choke' will give you the smallest pellet spread and slightly longer range , while the 'modified' and 'improved cyl.' chokes are steps between the large (cyl.) and small (full) pattern chokes... think of the 'full choke' as a funnel and the 'cyl.choke' as a straight pipe , the 'improved cyl.' is a slightly funneled pipe and the 'modified choke' is a little more funneled ...the choke is literally an area of the barrel that is smaller than the rest of the barrel (thus the term choke) ...

if you havent bought a Saiga yet check the CDNN website for prices( link below ) , they have the best ive seen so far , but you will have to download their catalog to find em'....you will find the Saigas on pages 22 and 23...i paid just over $400 for my gun ( 12ga., 19in. Defense model ) + 2 spare mags., a sling , shipping , paperwork , taxes , etc. , out the door...they even sent me a swiss army knife as a perk...by comparison , my local dealer has the same gun in their display case , priced at over $440 for just the gun!!

hope that helps ya out a lil....if you are new to these shotguns or even to shotguns in general , i recommend that you read thru the some of the past threads on this site , theres lots of good info here , a lot of questions that you may not even have asked yet have probably been answered in here somewhere..and a few ideas you may not have thought of too.....

 

http://www.eaacorp.com/parts/saigaaccessories/choke2.shtml

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/

Edited April 2, 2004 by Silverfox

[G O B 3,516]

SAIGA_12 workswith 2 3/4 or 3" shells. I believe the .410 requires different mags for different length shells. But the 12ga. will handle either length shell even different lengths in the same magazine! The 12 has a gas regulator you will probably never need the 2 setting on the gas cylynder unless you shoot "police"(light loads for wussie's)rounds.Even these reduced loads should mainly work on setting 1. To see if your SAIGA is safe to shoot slugs see if a dime will fit down the muzzle if not it has a factory choke built into the barrell.SAIGA uses a 1mm. restriction wich is "extra full". DO NOT USE SLUGS WITH A FULL CHOKE!!!! Have your shotgun fitted for removable choke tubes about $75 if you don't have a local gunsmith try Colonial Arms Co. P.O.Box636 Selma Al.63702 tel(800)-949 8088 They will do this mail order.Get win-choke system it will accept the widest variety of chokes.

 

Haappy Hunti'n! G O B

[ARRH86 0]

Thank you all very much for the info.

 

And yeah I am not the most knowledgeable about shotguns.... I am experienced with rifles and handguns and am very safe though, if you were wondering.

 

I belive in the next week or two I will probably order a Saiga, most likely with a 19 inch barrel then, since that seems the easiest route if I want to be able to fire the widest variety of ammunition easily.

 

If none of you have ever been to www.hk94.com or www.awbansunset.com I highly suggest those links and forums as well, there is some great info.

 

Thanks again all, I will be around.

[Silverfox 0]

np man...anytime...welcome to the forum....and just in case you arent aware of this , these things DO take common AK parts...come October 2004 you may wanna have a few bucks stashed away...lol...

[ARRH86 0]

Awesome. So I would be able to have a flash suppressor, pistol grip, evil bayonet lug if I wanted?

 

Also, I actually already had the CDNN catalog in pdf format, unless there is a newer one out (I just got it like a week ago). It only had the Saigas with the 22" barrels. Do the 19" barrels have to be special ordered? Or does CDNN just not advertise them? Or just not have them

 

Thanks again for the help everyone especially silverfox!

[Silverfox 0]

i just downloaded the new CDNN catalog ...i was still looking at the old one (2003)..yea it seems that the 19in model didnt make this years catalog , you might want to give em a call at their toll free number and check on that..they are the ones who sold me my 19in model last year ( it was priced at $260 ), so i know they at least HAD them....there are of course other places to find one , but they (CDNN) had the best price i could find ...hopefully they just didnt include em in the catalog , but still stock them...EAA lists em at approx. $440 for the 19in., at that rate id just buy one from a local dealer and save the shipping cost...i hope you have good luck with CDNN , maybe someone else knows of a place you can get a 19in. cheaper than EAA...anyone?.....

also..you may be able to save a few bucks if they dont stock the 19in. model by getting the longer barrel and having a gunsmith install a threaded poly-choke system..i think you can have one installed for less than $100..add that to the cost CDNN is advertising their Saigas for ($200 or $220 depending on if you want a sight rail or not) and you are still $140 cheaper than EAA...of course , if you dont mind not shooting slugs , and dont intend to spend alot of time shooting skeet or trap , the full choke models work pretty nice too...you will see alot of people saying good things about the full choke models on this site...you can always have the chokes installed later too , if you change your mind.....just a few options to think about...

Edited April 3, 2004 by Silverfox

[fowlplay 0]

I actually just got off the phone with Colonial Arms and for about one hundred dollars they cut my barrel to 19 inches and put in a true choke system. This makes the total price of my saiga 350.00. Talk about a good deal. I initially had the 22 inch model with a full choke and only paid 250.00 and that was through my local dealer.

[ARRH86 0]

Cool.... so you can now switch between cylinder choke tube, and full choke, etc. to fire slugs, shot in tight patterns, and shot in loose patterns?

 

The way things have been looking that is what I probably will do.

[shotgun_lobotomy 0]

do you know if you need a special reamer to cut a chromed brrl? and if you cut it down to 19" can you just thread the brrl for the actual saiga chokes? what i mean is the brrl that far back the same diamiter ?

[fowlplay 0]

The outside diameter should be the same, however, the inside will not due to the shortened length. At the full 22inches the diameter is smaller due to the full choke. At the cut length of 19 inches there is a true bore diameter and this means that your machine will be boring less metal because of the larger diameter. And yes one needs to have a special boring tool to bore the chrome lined barrel. In the end, I am sure that one will still need a gun smith to bore out the barrel and then thread the barrel for choke tubes. Now if the smith has the correct thread for the origional Saiga chokes is a different question. I know many companies have their chokes pattened and therefore one cannot have their threading system put into other barrels. As I said I had the true choke system put into my barrel. This was the cheapest and most compatible with other systems. Hope this hepls.

 

Oh and by the way, I have shot almost every type of 12 gauge shell through my Saiga. From 2 3/4 low brass fedral 8 shot (really cheap at walmart, and I have seen a lot expensive guns not cycle this ammo) to 3 inch mag BB steel. All have worked fine. I am about to start on my sporting clay and trap leagues and my siaga will be my choice, even over my too expensive over-under citori. Just because it looks so cool!

[ARRH86 0]

Thanks Fowlplay. So basically now that your Saiga has been bored, you can just fire slugs by removing any choke attachment? And then when you want a certain pattern you just thread a certain choke on?

 

I will most likely go have a Saiga ordered for me Today.

[G O B 3,516]

To ARRH86

 

Shoot slugs/rifled slugs thru cylinder choke. Shoot subcaliber sabot slugs through extended rifled "choke'-also known as a paradox device. Other type chokes as recomended by manufacturer-the variety is amazing! The cylinder choke is bore size it is also good for shellcrackers,beanbags,incendiary,tracers and the million other"specialty"shells out there. This is the neatest thing about 12-ga. If You can imagine it you will find it out there.

 

I understand the SAIGA chokes are external thread.American chokes are internal threads. Either way you still need to protect the threads -thread protector ring for SAIGA or a choke if internal threads.Think of cylinder choke as thread protector.

The biggest difference is that the end of the barrel wears fastest and gots the most abuse.For$15 bucks you can screw in a new one!

 

Have a blast! G O B

[ARRH86 0]

Thank you much G O B.

 

The store wasn't open today, I will order on monday.

 

Then when it comes in I will have it shipped out to Colonial arms for them to work their magic. So it looks like I will get a cylinder choke tube, a rifled slug choke, and probably one or two others, that will be capable with steel shot. (Colonial Arms seems very friendly. The guy who answered my email was very knowledgeable and helpful).

 

I really think the Saiga will be great , now when I get this done I will be able to fire anything through it! yay!