dubya 198 Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 What do you guys have loaded up in your S12 for HD? I built a wall mount for mine so it's about 3' from my head while I'm sleeping. If only I could build a SBS.... BTW, I know a guy with a S410 unconverted, unfired, that I think I might try to buy. The girlfriend would probably really like it and 30rd mag dumps would be a blast with a 410! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MT Predator 2,294 Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Winchester PDX 1 oz slug with 3 balls of 00 Buck. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dubya 198 Posted March 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Didn't know they even made that stuff, haven't really looked around much. I definitely don't want to use a slug I'd be too worried about it hitting someone in my house. So far I just use 2 3/4" 00 buckshot at 3 1/4 dram Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ResponsiveResolve 7 Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 I've been looking for #4 buckshot for my HD go to round...once I finish my S12. Still waiting to get some parts and ammo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cguiro 29 Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 <blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="MT Predator" data-cid="877527" data-time="1363604339"><p> Winchester PDX 1 oz slug with 3 balls of 00 Buck.</p></blockquote> Thats whats sitting in my 590 atm. With the 20 inch barrwl i was able to put all 3 pellets and the slug on target at 15 yards Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dubya 198 Posted March 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 That's not too bad. I've always liked plain old lead 00 buck shot. I thought about copper plated shot but for inside a house it would have more penetration and that's not good IMO Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kingjason 10 Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Remington Express 00 and Low Recoil slugs. There is only two of us here and we are on over an acre. I can fix sheetrock. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nephilim7 107 Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 I keep an MD-Drum loaded with 20 rounds of Federal Tactical #1 Buck (15 pellets). Low recoil and low flash, while maintaining the FBI minimum standard of all projectiles achieving 12" of penetration in ballistic gel. That's 300 .30 cal pellets at 1100 fps in a flight control wad at the ready. On paper, #1 buck causes 130% of the wound trauma similar 00 buck loads are capable of. At the same time, #1 buck penetrates walls less easily. The flight control wad delivers extremely tight patterns. Think about 15 .30 cal balls hitting at sonic speed in the exact same place at the exact same time. I have heard of it dropping coyotes dead at 70 yards. *** Note: The flight Control wad sometimes responds adversely to use of chokes. Try patterning with less choke than usual for these loads. Also, my S12 cycles it just fine with factory gas system set at Setting "1" and a MOD setting on my Poly Choke. Part # FC-LE1321B Federal Cartridge 12ga Tactical 1 Buck 15 Pellet Pasted from a distributer website: Tactical® Buckshot Federal Premium® has turned shotshell technology 180 degrees with the new FLITECONTROL® Wad. This exciting and innovative shotshell system delivers the tightest buckshot patterns available for law enforcement—all without expensive barrel alterations or aftermarket choke tubes. Tactical Buckshot also features copper-plated shot and recoil reduction that, when combined with the FLITECONTROL wad, result in the most dependable and predictable pattern performance available. Tactical also features a solid brass head for reliable function—not brass-plated steel that can swell and cause extraction issues. To top it off, all Federal Tactical Shotshell offerings are loaded with the unique and famous, Basic-Lead Styphnate 202 primer. Federal Premium Tactical Buckshot is offered in reduced recoil 8 and 9 pellet 00, and a full power 9 pellet 00 for semi-automatic shotguns. New Tactical Buckshot featuring FLITECONTROL transforms the most basic police shotgun into a precision shooting tool. Specifications Load No. - PB1321B Gauge - 12 Shell Length Inches/MM - 2 3/4 / 70 Muzzel Velocity - 1100 Slug Type - 15 Pellets - 1 Buck ***Good luck finding any! Even before the scare, it was very very difficult to find. LE agencies love this stuff, and so do I!!! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JoeAK 337 Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Winchester PDX 1 oz slug with 3 balls of 00 Buck. Careful with that stuff, in TNoutdoors9's test he had serious over penetration with it, might be fine for you , but in my house it'd sail through the walls with no problem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sg44jDOL8jo I use #4 Buck, or *dons fire suit* birdshot, I figure ten rounds of birdshot will stop someone within 20', if not, then it oughta slow them down enough for me to get the other saiga. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Nemo 882 Posted March 19, 2013 Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 I'm running 2 3/4" military grade 9 pellet 00 buck. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
montec 164 Posted March 19, 2013 Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 I'm alternating. Blackcloud and 000 buck. I like the cutting edge on the blackcloud. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
filthygovemploye 64 Posted March 19, 2013 Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 (edited) I've been looking for #4 buckshot for my HD go to round...once I finish my S12. Still waiting to get some parts and ammo.i saw a write up in SGN that suggested #1 buck (being released by Federal soon) was the best round, best dispersion on target, lotsa math, way over my head... Edited March 19, 2013 by filthygovemploye Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nephilim7 107 Posted March 19, 2013 Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 (edited) ***Edited to not sound like a jerk while posting late at night... #1 buck is a more effective round than any other for stopping unarmored assailants inside a small building, like a house, due to greater total cross-sectional area of all of the projectiles. It still penetrates walls, just not as much. It is perfect for home defense, but 00 buck has an aura in pop culture as the nastiest round. This is false, but 00 remains the most popular. #1 buck can be difficult to find due to lack of mainstream favor. Edited March 19, 2013 by Nephilim7 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dubya 198 Posted March 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 How bout some" Dragons Breath" from American Specialty Ammo!? Lol. I would actually buy some just to see it shoot but its like $15/3rds plus a $25 hazmat fee on top of normal shipping. What would 000 buck be, 6 pellets in a 2 3/4" shell? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nephilim7 107 Posted March 19, 2013 Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 Be careful about dragon's breath loads. They are incindiary, and I am told they will burn and damage a gas system. They should not be fired in a semi-automatic weapon. Shoot them in your Saiga if you want though. Just be sure and post pics of the carnage! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dubya 198 Posted March 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 (edited) Nah I have an old maverick 88 pump that'll work just fine! Edited March 19, 2013 by dubya Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Nemo 882 Posted March 19, 2013 Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 DRAGON"S BREATH WILL BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!!!! It is not a home defense round! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nephilim7 107 Posted March 19, 2013 Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 DRAGON"S BREATH WILL BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!!!! It is not a home defense round! Maybe some of us prescribe to a "Scorched Earth" policy of home defense... Can't have a flamethrower, so this is the next best thing! LOL On topic: PLEASE don't use bird shot for defense unless it is all you have. It is very painful and can be lethal in some circumstances. Shooting a meth-head with bird shot would be like shooting a bull with a BB gun. Preferably, never have to pull the trigger. If you must shoot, shoot well and know your backstop. I would only ever use something that is at least humane and effective enough to be used for killing deer cleanly (#1 buck, up through slugs). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ResponsiveResolve 7 Posted March 19, 2013 Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 (edited) I've been looking for #4 buckshot for my HD go to round...once I finish my S12. Still waiting to get some parts and ammo.i saw a write up in SGN that suggested #1 buck (being released by Federal soon) was the best round, best dispersion on target, lotsa math, way over my head... Sounds good...I'll have to study up on it. Any idea on the time frame of the release? I guess my main concern is my neighbors and their safety. I guess another question would be the use of 3 inch shells vs. 2.75 inch shells...Does it have an effect on the number of shot or just the powder load? I think the S12 has a serious advantage if you run can run 3" shells. I believe they hold 27 pellets. found this: "whether it's self defense or hunting, this 2-3/4" 12 Gauge Buckshot round with #4 Buck (27 Pellets) at 1325 fps is an excellent choice" "3" 12 Gauge Magnum buckshot round with #4 Lead Buckshot (41 Pellets) at 1225 fps is an excellent choice for bigger deer" Edited March 19, 2013 by ResponsiveResolve Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dubya 198 Posted March 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 DRAGON"S BREATH WILL BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!!!! It is not a home defense round! Yes I know Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grutiantor 0 Posted March 19, 2013 Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 i have 3'' remington 15 pel OO. I have heard many times before that 3'' is too much recoil, but i had a 2 3/4 shell catch the barrel hood once, only once, but i am not allowing that variable to be put into play when things get serious. 3'' has always chambered, fired, and ejected regardless of circumstances. just my opinion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
montec 164 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Share Posted March 20, 2013 How bout some" Dragons Breath" from American Specialty Ammo!? Lol. I would actually buy some just to see it shoot but its like $15/3rds plus a $25 hazmat fee on top of normal shipping. What would 000 buck be, 6 pellets in a 2 3/4" shell? 000buck is either 8 or 9 pellets. all 9mm in size. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
misterT 174 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Share Posted March 20, 2013 Right now I have it loaded with #4 buck shot because i read that is what the state cops use in their shotguns. they did testing and came up with that as the best trade off between good penetration and number of projectiles. Though I do have a few boxes of the Winchester PDX, I was going to try some out but cannot find anymore right now. My plan is to eventually stagger mags with 2 #4 buck followed by a deer slug the 2 more #4. The idea being that the #4 will knock them down and the deer slug will make sure they dont get back up. I honestly hope I never have to shoot anyone.......but if i have to I dont want them to get back up again and some of these crack heads can be more resilient than a radioactive resident evil Zombie! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dubya 198 Posted March 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2013 I picked up a few boxes of Winchester 4 Buck and that's what I'm using for HD. The local ripoff (gander) mountain has about 30 boxes of 12 gauge PDX1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
romad7 75 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Share Posted March 20, 2013 http://www.hornady.com/store/12-Ga-00-Z-MAX Thats what I have in my Mossberg 500 and my S12, for the zombies of course! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwelhse 1,285 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Share Posted March 20, 2013 I know I'm going to need my flame suit for this one, but I wouldn't trust ANY semi-auto shotgun with self defense... In any shotgun, my chosen load would be bird shot, bird shot, bird shot, and slugs until the end. In a panic I'll nail him 3 times, then I have a few slugs to seal the deal. In the meantime, I'm trusting my .45acps with Hyrdashok and FMJ staggered in the mags to take care of the problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dubya 198 Posted March 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2013 (edited) ...zzzz...zzzzz...zz......zzzzzzz Edited March 20, 2013 by dubya 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
filthygovemploye 64 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Share Posted March 20, 2013 someone has suggested that 870s and 500s arent as jamproof as ya think... only reason i am hesitant to use saiga is i want as many rounds as possible... so that means rifle...overpenetration is a concern, i am running softpoint (lead and plastic) but i should be shooting down the stairs, and live in a brick house....my survival is paramount... flame me for that!!!! as to the #1 federal availabilty, i think its already out, nephilim up there already discussed the out of stock-ness of it though... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Share Posted March 20, 2013 Obviously there are a lot of right answers, and a few wrong ones. Here is the rationale I use: 1st choice 2 3/4" #4 buck 1325 FPS or higher. Preferred would be 1 oz load (22 or 23 pellets) at ~1400 but I have seen no commercial versions of this for sale. (Guess what I have been making.) (Such a load is fairly similar to the terminal ballistics of firing 23 rounds of .22lr from a pistol into a 4" circle at 40'. Nothing to sneeze at.) With a full choke all or most of my pellets stay on a man sized target out at least a hundred feet. The spread is still useful at closer ranges. #2 is a 16 pellet #1 Buck load at 1325. Low velocity is dumb. We have a gas system that absorbs recoil, and you can do other things that help you to control your gun. see below about using a certain load, vs a maybe load. I used to use 3" magnum but I stopped, because I found that I could engage multiple targets more quickly with 2 3/4", or double a single target almost instantly. Since the 2 3/4 is a near guarantee of instant stop with the first shot, there was little advantage to be gained by the 3", load to offset slower engagement. I live in an apartment, with neighbors. It is cheaply built, so I doubt there are AR500 plates between the walls. I cannot control what distance a threat will be at. It could be hugging distance out to around 90 yards. Realistic self defense planning requires flexibility. Birdshot is worthless past about 20 feet, and uncertain to do the job inside that range. Bird-shot is out. Slugs and very large buck give range, but over penetration limits my options to stop an assailant without being an assailant myself to innocent neighbors. Some people here think that everything will happen inside a few feet. That is most likely, but not certain. Why not have something good up close and good out to a distance. Here is a good article that might change your thinking about this issue:http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/neshooters/45671-my-gunfight-thinking-outside-your-box.html I would only fire at a person who was trying to kill/ maim me or another innocent right now (and had the apparent ability). In that circumstance, I cannot gamble on using something that may not do the job on the first shot. I do plan on doing to rapid shots to make a probable stop a certain one. Any circumstance where maiming is a possibility doesn't justify shooting in the first place. The point of HD ammo is to instantly stop a threat with minimum of risk to bystanders. IMO The above #4B choice is the best compromise for the following reasons: Govt testing showed that this load had the highest instant stop/lethality of any ammo tested. (They DQ'ed it for having 2-5 of the 27 pellets stop around 11" instead of 12+) Typically there were 22 or more potentially lethal .24 wound channels in a fairly uniform group. This is maximized damage to a human target. Some of the pellets reach as deep as 15" so you can expect more pellets reach a vital organ than OOB, because there are more pellets and some of them punch deep enough. No other load was even close, but #1B had all 16 pellets punch past 12" so it won the test's official ranking by default. Keep in mind that even the worst samples of the #4 B load still had 6 more 12"+ wound channels and 5 extra 11" + wound channels that are still significant. This load minimizes over penetration. ~2.5 interior walls vs 4+ interior walls for OOB. If you go back to the first point you will also notice that most of the pellets will stop in a person, or exit with most of their energy spent. This is more efficient to tissue destruction unless you are going for hypervelocity/ spall type damage (not feasible in shotguns) This load has intermediate recoil. I can run it almost as fast as the cheap 3 dram birdshot, allowing for rapid engagement of multiple targets or double taps on a single. I timed myself with a few loads and was convinced that this is about as good as you can get with decent penetration. A #4 Buck load with a shotcup has very small gaps between pellets compared to OOB. This means that the shell is denser and less vulnerable to the dreaded bogeyman of top round deformation. (I have only been able to create this phenomenon in OOB loads with soft shells and no shotcup. When I tried to cause deformation by storing a loaded 8 round SGM with federal #4 B on a closed bolt for several months in a box next to the water heater over a summer, I was unable to get any noticeable deformation.) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nephilim7 107 Posted March 20, 2013 Report Share Posted March 20, 2013 *****This is all meant in good fun! Now I'm breaking out the dragon's breath 'cause someone's gettin' flamed.***** someone has suggested that 870s and 500s arent as jamproof as ya think... ...my survival is paramount... flame me for that!!!!***** AMEN BROTHER!!! ***** as to the #1 federal availabilty, i think its already out, nephilim up there already discussed the out of stock-ness of it though... ***** Thanks for noticing! The Federal Tactical #1 buck load came out in 2009. It's just hard to find. I happen to know where to get some at a great price online. Gotta be LEO, Veteren, or certified Security Personnel to order from this place. ***** Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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