13cent_killer 0 Posted November 28, 2005 Report Share Posted November 28, 2005 (edited) Hello everyone!! Yep I'm newb, this is only my 2nd or 3rd post.... but here it goes. I recently purchased an S-20 and so far I love it. I ran about 4 mags through it today and much to my suprise(after reading all the trouble some people have had with the S-20) I emptied all the mags without a single problem, 2 3/4" #6 federal shot and 2 3/4" remington 7/8oz slugs. I did field strip as far as I could, much like the ak, even ran a small piece of wire down the gas ports. I was suprised that quite a bit of junk ended up in the barrel when i was done. Now for my question. Is it possible to do the conversion to pistol grip without changing the FCG? I really don't want to start hacking on the receiver but i definately want to be able to use high cap mags in this little beast. But was curious if there are enough US made parts out there to do it. I saw ace ltd. had a receiver adapter(block) w/pistol grip attached, the buttstock. It looks like the pistol grip has a slot that allows the trigger guard to slide into it. Glad to hear any input on this you guys have. edit to add: Would the blackjack BJB S.W.I.F.T AK-47 Safety Lever work as a BHO(bolt hold open) or would one of these even work on the 20 and count as a U.S. part? Edited November 28, 2005 by 13cent_killer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted November 28, 2005 Report Share Posted November 28, 2005 you can potentially find some custom pistol grip/ stock combos that will work in factory trigger config. Let me reassure you... if you know what you are doing, a conversion on an S20, with all the parts handy takes about 45 minutes. and that includes cleaning up your junk when you are done. You will need to replace some internal parts ANYWAY, to be 922R compliant to USE A HI CAP MAG... SO... ya might as well just take the plunge... buy a couple GOOD Drill bits, some US made parts, and go to town. As long as you have a dremel with some cutting/grinding bits, and a good drill, and can operate basic hand tools, you are ALL SET! YES the blackjack safety lever works as a BHO device on the S20 ... NO It does not count towards parts count. ANY other questions, please ask... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pistonring8 1 Posted November 28, 2005 Report Share Posted November 28, 2005 Several of the members in here (including myself) have asked, and attempted that very same thing. Whether the reason was to avoid "major modification" or to keep the hunting stock. There were also several of us who had in fact replaced enough parts to legally sport a high cap mag while leaving most of the FCG intact. It was a member of this forum who did the adaptor block PG conversion first. Here is my 100% honest observations in doing this. There are much more drastic modifications that need to be done to replace a gas piston or handguard than you would need to replace the FCG. Also, attempting to replace followers and floorplates with US made parts in Saiga shotgun mags is damn near impossible. The buttstock can be replaced fairly easily, but thats about it. (See Cobra or BattleRifleG3 for a drop in PG buttstock.) It is not a difficult task to replace the FCG in the Saiga. Members have been reporting great success with conversions done while mildly intoxicated, sitting at the kitchen table with a Dremmel rotary tool and a hammer. The end result in either case should be a shotgun that you are going to feel safe and comfortable shooting. In the course of converting your shotgun to a PG configuration, you also need to make it legal according to the 922r regulations that Im sure you've heard so much about. I hope this helps. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
13cent_killer 0 Posted November 28, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2005 Wow!! Thanks for the quick replies and some sound advice. I'm gonna be giving this some serious thought. My only concern is, I just bought the S-20 and don't wanna fork it up. I guess a good place to start would be to read the step by step process posted in the forum. Hmmm decisions decisions. Did any of you guys install the S.W.I.F.T. ak safety lever from Blackjack for the BHO and how well does it work? Easy too install? I would think it would chew into the charging handle. Thanks again Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AegisDei 2 Posted November 28, 2005 Report Share Posted November 28, 2005 I'm in the same boat as you...got a saiga but don't want to mess up the conversion. I know it's easy, but Murphey's law was created for me. However, check out this post: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=8517 I think it has potential though I'm not sure how long before it's available. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted November 28, 2005 Report Share Posted November 28, 2005 As far as the safety lever, just notch yours. You have to take the FCG loose anyway to get it out. (Trigger pin) Mucho cheaper if you have a dremel. I did all of mine over the weekend as well as my S-20 conversion & built a couple AK's. The most problems I had with any of them was getting the pins in & out. (And that's minor) I used a long garbage twist tie to fish the BHO spring down in there - I think I got that from a post from pistonring8. Put it this way, I converted my S-20 in about 1 1/2 hours (including paint & test firing) I used a dremel, drill & some various files & screwdrivers. (no vise, drill press, welder...etc) Just get your pile of parts & a buddy to help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
13cent_killer 0 Posted November 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 OK i might be sold on doing this. Also wondering how much modification to the buttstock would be required? Was thinking of using the K-Var ak74 type with a saw style p-grip. Thx for any info. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Depends on how yer pins are retained. (hammer & trigger) If you have an AK retaining plate or e-clips & nylon plugs you do not have to modify it. If you reuse the retaining spring then you need to use a binding post or bolt (yuk) and notch the lower section of the buttstock to clear the post. (as per Sheik Yerbouti's tutorial): http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/index.htm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
13cent_killer 0 Posted November 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 I ordered the Tapco G2 U.S. trigger group today. I'm also gonna order the blackjack buffer and possibly the S.W.I.F.T. lever. Any of you fellas use the AK SAW style grip (like from tapco) on the S20? If so how do you like it? I plan on using the Binding post screw where the two rear rivets were removed so I guess I'll have to work on the stock some. Is there a mill type bit that can be purchased and used in a drill press? Any one tried using AlumiBlack, i think thats what its called, on the binding posts? I would think it would work well. Thanks for the info so far , I'll probably have more questions so I'll be back haha. RRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AegisDei 2 Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 I have the SAW on my S12 and a SAW for my S20 because I like it so much. You won't be sorry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
13cent_killer 0 Posted November 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 I have the SAW on my S12 and a SAW for my S20 because I like it so much. You won't be sorry. Cool!! Thats what I'm gonna get. I wish my S20 had the mounting rail between the sights, can those be added?? I haven't seen any for sale so prob not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 I would REALLY recommend you use the shepherds crook replacement plate and some hole plugs instead of the binding posts, for two reasons... ONE... its MUCH EASIER when you need to dissassemble, and reassemble the FCG... TWO... it will LOOK NICER... the hole plugs EXACTLY MATCH the paint on the receiver and look like rivets that BELONG there... Other than that... there is no reason not to... and your way will be just fine... Just my 2 cents is all... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 I plan on using the Binding post screw where the two rear rivets were removed so I guess I'll have to work on the stock some. Is there a mill type bit that can be purchased and used in a drill press? I've used a band saw in the past. A hacksaw will work as well - or a dremel. Much cheaper than an end mill cutter... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
13cent_killer 0 Posted December 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 I disassembled my shotty today just to take a look inside. Are any of the shotgun receivers already cut for the pistol grip nut hole like some of the Saiga rifles? I was shining a flashlight and trying to see but I don't think it has the p/grip nut hole. I can see that it has the military trigger hole. I might try to do a search for a template to lay on the receiver to get the correct specs for the p/grip nut hole. I've also read about having to "polish" the trigger. Whats up with that? Indy, I after checking it out I decided to go with the shepherds crook replacement plate. Thanx Z Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 WIth luck, the hole that the factory trigger protrudes from will BECOME your PG nut hole... without needing too much modification... ( In other words... you can grind some off the PG nut and not have to grind any on the receiver...) Just a thought... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
smithwr3 0 Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 I had a blackjack buffer in my S-20 and it had problems feeding every 3rd shell or so using 2 3/4" shells in the 5-round magazine. I removed the buffer and the problem went away. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 I plan on using the Binding post screw where the two rear rivets were removed so I guess I'll have to work on the stock some. Another thing to consider...I use e-clips (3/16") to retain the pins. While the AK pin retainer plates are nice, I spent a whole $0.31 for 2 e-clips at Tractor Supply Company. I think they're $1 for 2 at Lowes & Home Depot. The nylon hole plugs are $1 for 2 there as well. (you'll need 4) You will have $2.31 into those vs about the same for the binder post screws and you won't have to touch the stock or paint the posts. The retainer plates are about $10. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
13cent_killer 0 Posted December 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Cool.... thanks alot. Which areas of the hammer need to be polished? Anyone got a pic? All my parts are on the way and I'm getting the tools together. I think I'm gonna hold off on the S.W.I.F.T. lever for now. smithwr3, if the blackjack gives me problems maybe I'll pick up an AK to put it in hehehe. RRRRRRRRRRRRR!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
13cent_killer 0 Posted December 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Oh.. here's a link to a printable ak template I found. Not sure if its correct for the saiga but i'm gonna print it out and see how it lines up. http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/AK/docs/...emplate_Ace.pdf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
13cent_killer 0 Posted December 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 OK.... I'm making some progress. I've been working on the S20 conversion a little each evening. I went ahead and cut the pistol grip nut hole and mounted the saw style p/grip, did some polishing on contact points on fcg, mounted the trigger guard,installed fcg w/shep. crook replacement lever and my kvar stock should be here tomorrow. I'm sooo excited.. I guess the true test will be actually firing it and if it will cycle reliably like it was before I installed the new fcg. Do you guys have any advice/tips as far as the hammer needing to be modified any before firing? I didn't grind anything off yet only did some polishing, it is a tapco g2 single hook. I don't have BHO. Oh yeah i used the nylon hole plugs and e-clips like suggested and i have to say i'm pretty impressed with how they look. Just like they belong there. Thanx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted December 10, 2005 Report Share Posted December 10, 2005 My S20 conversion went with a G2 single hook... I popped it in, and took it to the range. That was the amount of fiddling around I needed to do. IT WORKED right from the get go... yours may be different. LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
13cent_killer 0 Posted December 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2005 My S20 conversion went with a G2 single hook... I popped it in, and took it to the range. That was the amount of fiddling around I needed to do. IT WORKED right from the get go... yours may be different. LOL I had time to shoot 2 mags through it this morning and had no problems so it should be ok. I used the G2 single hook as well. I'm pretty pleased with the results of the conversion... not to mention it looks sweeet!!! I'm still impressed with the way the nylon hole plugs worked and look. A big thanks to everyone who responded to my topic on the conversion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted December 10, 2005 Report Share Posted December 10, 2005 I had time to shoot 2 mags through it this morning and had no problems so it should be ok. I used the G2 single hook as well. I'm pretty pleased with the results of the conversion... not to mention it looks sweeet!!! I'm still impressed with the way the nylon hole plugs worked and look. A big thanks to everyone who responded to my topic on the conversion. Sweet! next mission...get some pics up! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
13cent_killer 0 Posted January 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2006 Here's a pic I took of my Saiga 20 after the conversion. Bought a digital camera as a gift for the family hehehe. Haven't refinished or painted anything yet. Again a big thanx to everyone who helped me through the process. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AegisDei 2 Posted January 1, 2006 Report Share Posted January 1, 2006 Nice work! Congrats on poppin' your conversion cherry and doin' it well! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Here's a pic I took of my Saiga 20 after the conversion. Bought a digital camera as a gift for the family hehehe. Looks good - I did the same & got a new camera after the rottie munched ours up. (may she r.i.p.!!!) I like the SAW on my S-20 as well. I had a fat AK PG first, but the SAW is perfect. Glad to see you decided to do it yourself! My SAW was slightly interfering with my BHO lever & the bottom of the back of the trigger. I dremeled away a tad & now it's dead on. I removed the parting line on the hammer where the carrier contacts it with a file to smooth it down. I also had to file a touch on the front right corner at the bottom of the trigger. It was sharper than the hole in the receiver. I didn't run into that on my the G2's in my rifles. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Roadkill45 0 Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 OK, i'm in the same boat. so what is the bottom line with the ACE stock PG setup. Looks like it makes the shotty a little longer. I have the S20 with stock everything except i cut the barrel down to 19. anyone have hands on on the stock? thanx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
13cent_killer 0 Posted January 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 OK, i'm in the same boat. so what is the bottom line with the ACE stock PG setup. Looks like it makes the shotty a little longer. I have the S20 with stock everything except i cut the barrel down to 19. anyone have hands on on the stock? thanx Roadkill45 Mine has the 22" barrel and removing the factory stock actually made the OAL shorter, maybe 2" or so. Not sure what the length is on the ace stock though but in my opinion your overall length will still be shorter than with the factory stock. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Hey Roadkill45 did you have to enlarge your gas ports when you cut the bbl back? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Roadkill45 0 Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Hey Roadkill45 did you have to enlarge your gas ports when you cut the bbl back? have not done it yet, as i am laid up and can't get out to test fire it. guess i could run down to the river and fire a couple of rounds into mexico just to see if it works. did Dinzag's magazine mods to make a couple of 10 rounders which worked out well. i have to go get some shots in the stomach at 1100 AZ time so maybe i'll run down and blast off 10 on the way home from the hospital, then i'll post when i get home. see you in a few. oh yeah, ACE has a pistol grip and adaptor that lets you add any of their ace stocks to it. the PG and adaptor is $65, and it will take one of my AR buffer tubes screwed into it with my ace butt stock, how do you think that would look/function? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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