Which one to buy?

[Captain John Jarrett 0]

All,

 

New member here, not new to firearms but new to these AK based shotguns. So here is what I'm asking:
I am going to buy a semi-auto shotgun and after watching youtube vids and reading around have decided on either the Vepr 12 or the Saiga 12, Legion IZ-433...now having said that, and I know it's all a matter of conjecture and opinion but which should I get? I know the Vepr has a thicker reciever and that the flip up cover, top rail, and self regulating gas system are what make it stand apart from most Saiga shotguns, but the IZ-433 has all those things except for the reciever thickness. There is quite a big differance in price between the two, but is this an instance of you get what you pay for or is it throwing money away by buying the higher priced item?

If it helps in answering to my particular question I"m not handy with tools and therefore can not do any additional conversion process (could put a new stock on I suppose but that would be about it) so whatever I get needs to work right out of the box!

Thank you for any and all answers provided.

Regards, John.

[gunfun 3,931]

If the model of IZ 433 you are looking at already has a proper stock and pistol grip, that is a tough call. I can say that in handling one, I did see that the Vepr 12 had a little higher fit and finish than more common S12 models. The difference in weight was not anything I noticed. I would still want a krebs or other peep sight on there. I liked the sights otherwise and thought the furniture was great.

 

I haven't heard of people getting crooked rails on the IZ433s so there is that.

 

It didn't always lock open on the last shot with lower powered ammo. It kicked a bit harder than my S12s.

 

I havent handled the S12 433 to compare, but it would be a close call for me. Everything eqyual sight unseen, I think I would go for V12. However, if I could verify whether IZ 433 kicked a bit softer or not, that could tip the scale.

 

Since there has been nothing close to a receiver failure of S12, thicker metal is unnecessary and therefore a downgrade.

 

If you are looking at a standard monte carlo stock IZ-433, then I would say you want a V12 to save on conversion work and cost. In either case, I think I would want to upgrade the trigger to at least a modded G2 double hook as seen in the link in my sig.

[menace667 194]

From the perspective of someone with little knowledge of the AK platform but a love of guns I say the VEPR. I had, and sold a Saiga after quite a bit of work, money, and headache to get it to run. My VEPR came out of the box running anything I put into it from weak birdshot to 00 to slugs all the same.

 

I view them like this. The saiga is like a Honda civic. nothing special out of the box, but with a lot of upgrades can be special. The Vepr is like the range rover. While you can add stuff to it if you want, it is beautiful the way it is. If the difference between the Legion and VEPR is receiver thickness I would go with the thicker VEPR on that also. The VEPR is on a RPK receiver which is used in heavy machine guns due to its durability. There are two things that can never be built too good, guns and women.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Unless you want to radically chop it, the VEPR 12 is a great out-of-the-box weapon. If I had to run something without being able to refine it, V12 would be my choice. For radically chopping, the Saiga 12 is superior.

[sunnybean 939]

John,

 

Welcome.

 

I have both. Both are great guns. What gun fun said is correct, as usual. There is no discernible difference. Both use the same gas system. Both use the same mags. Both have pretty much the exact same features. To me, it would come down to the price. If you can pick up the 433 (030) for a song, then get it. If you are only talking $100-200 difference, buy the Vepr. The benefit would be getting a factory installed trigger guard, factory FCG, factory pistol grip, no extra holes in the receiver from moving the FCG forward, and a bit nicer (relatively speaking) paint job. The benefit to the 433 would be having a metal top rail and a barrel thickness that matches all the popular 109 models. So, if you want to run chokes, it will be easier to find sets that work with your bore on the 433. As for the thicker/thinner receiver, I don't see much in any benefit either way. The one nice thing about the 433 is you can match up any stamped AK buttstock to without issue. On the Vepr you will need to remove some material the stock to accommodate for the thicker receiver. It can be done, but requires extra effort.

 

Either way, you can't really go wrong.

 

This looks like a perfect excuse to show these off.

 

Top is a V12

Middle is a IZ-412 (040)

Bottom is a IZ-433 (030)

The all the work to the Izzys was performed by Leland at Sierra Ordnance Company.

[gunfun 3,931]

good points.

[ResponsiveResolve 7]

"...Buy a Shotgun...Buy a Shotgun."

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

I can't believe that no one has pointed out that there is no reason to choose...

 

COLLECT THEM ALL!!

 

Where to START is the debate...

[Captain John Jarrett 0]

All,

 

Thank you for the comments and suggestions, I would have replied earlier but for some reason I can't type in the reply to box using my phone, so had to wait till I got home. Anyway, here is the Saiga in consideration http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=333151872 hope its ok to post it just to point out what I'm speaking of.

 

But now I'm not so certain I'm going to go with either of these designs as I had most of the day at work to look around the web and on this site for that matter, and I'm now seriously considering a MKA-1919. I can get a bone stock one for the time being at a much reduced cost of either the Saiga or Vepr, and later on send it off to have the mods completed, but still have (at least from most I've read and watched) very good reliabilty right out the box! The Vepr seems to be the other that is g to g right out the box but the price difference between the two is quite large....although nothing other than putting on a different stock would need to be done to the Vepr, but there again its even more money than the Akdal.

So am I comparing apples to oranges between the AK designs and the AR design?

 

John.

[gunfun 3,931]

For the money of that auction, I think I would get a V12. Based on your statement about handiness, This seems like a no-brainer for you. Figure that it will cost about $175 to get an unconverted S12 030 to the same format as V12 assuming you do the work, and you would still have axis pin holes. $1275 (+~175) = ~$1450 and the work still needs done. I think you could find a V12 for less than that. If you were comparing That gun at $950 and The V12 at $1200, the deal would be even to me.

 

Vs. the Adkal? Not apples and oranges. Adkals are good too. There have been some early parts failures, and oddities, so I would want a newer gen one if any. Also, I think the mags are much harder to come by and you surely have less options. From what I can tell, if you want bigger magazines, it is more expensive and complicated to acheive 922r compliance with an Adkal. If you are happy with only 5 shot mags, buy it and leave it OEM, and you may like it more or less than an S12/V12. I'd say that you need to hold a converted saiga or vepr, and an adkal. That will probably make up your mind right there.

 

I did like the overall feel of the one I handled, and the weight. It did feel much bulkier to me than a Saiga, but the ergonomics were good. I would be more worried about breaking internal parts though. Not the plastic, but things like the cast drive block. Most seem to have ugly chewing of aluminum on aluminum that is kinda worrisome to me.

 

I expect that the ADkal will get pretty good support from the aftermarket over the next few years, but it is not there yet, unless you want to pay.

[gunfun 3,931]

Also keep in mind, that you can get that S12 model here from the importer for a couple hundred less,or converted for about $200 more than the one on GB.

http://legionusainc.com/

[thebuns1 4,323]

To me its like asking which is better, RPK or AK? As thats really the differences essentially. Ive never had any hang ups with an S12. Nor the V12. I love them both. I dont really see how one is better than the other, but I prefer the way the V12's come out of the box. Mine has been flawless with known problematic shells for the S12, but not a deal breaker. I actually like their BHO as well over the Izhmash offering. But It would be nice if the importer of the V12's would have ordered them with an aluminum rail on the dust cover. Again, not a deal breaker though.

 

I also like how the Vepr is finished. Molot has a unique way of making their weapons stick out a bit more under the skin. I like how the parts are numbered, and really like the RPK handguards. And like Gunfun said, I didnt notice much difference in the weight either.

[Captain John Jarrett 0]

I'd love to be able to hold any of them let alone all of them, with the feeding frenzy being what it is there are 0 of any of the three here in Louisville for me to look at.
So from everything you've said I think I will just go ahead and eliminate the Saiga from the compition and narrow it down to either the Vepr or MKA 1919. In regard to the Akdal what would I use as a gauge of newness for it...serial # I'm assuming, but then again we all know what assuming gets you!
I found this one http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=333248643 and if I had the money I would buy it in a heartbeat, but apparently my $1,525 bid isn't going to get it and I don't have any extra to put towards it at this time...have a Tavor on order and it is occupying the rest of my fun money for the time being.

[ResponsiveResolve 7]

I would get the most bang for your buck.

Most of it is all cosmetics, there is a wealth of knowledge here and you can learn how to do most everything.

I seen a MKA at a gun show for $600 and a used Saiga .233 for $350 last month.

I was lucky to find a Saiga 12 IZ-107 when I was looking around semi-locally. I feel opportunities present themselves if you just look around. My buddy has seen a Saiga 410 converted for $400 in his area a state away. One semi-local gunshop had a converted S12 for $1200 which was very, very nice.

 

I feel patience is the key. Call your gunshops, friends, relatives, and your senators, you will find something you like.

 

Just my thoughts on it.

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

So am I comparing apples to oranges between the AK designs and the AR design?

 

John.

 

YES...

 

As much as the MKA intrests me (no drum!) it's a different animal.

 

To give some actual advice that isn't technical (GunFun has that base covered like white-on-rice-on-a-paper-plate-with-a-glass-of-milk-in-a-snow-storm-snowball-fight) I would still go with the S12 if I had it to do all over again. Excellent aftermarket support, mags, and knowledge. You're not going to get nearly the amount of support with any other platform at the moment. With that said, I still WANT THEM ALL! GIMME!!!

Edited March 22, 2013 by Maxwelhse

[Vulcan 14]

I'd love to be able to hold any of them let alone all of them, with the feeding frenzy being what it is there are 0 of any of the three here in Louisville for me to look at.

 

I'm in your neck of the woods. If you order a V12 from Atlantic Firearms, it'll be here in less than 10 days. Last I checked, Shooter's had an S12 or two.

 

I have an S12 and a V12. I like them both for many of the same reasons... but I had to convert my S12 years ago when I got it. The V12? Out of the box it was the way I wanted it... sans a couple of 922 parts... which are now on order.

[Captain John Jarrett 0]

Almost stopped by Shooters today, instead went to Lotus and Open Range....no luck at either but If I have time I may stop by the Creek and Shooters tomorrow. Atlantic was out of the V12 but just got off their site and looks like they are going to get more in stock, but at a $400 ($1,399 as opposed to $999) increase over what they had them for before the hysteria went into affect. However that seems to be what they are selling for on all the auction sites so I went ahead and gave them my e-mail to let me know when more come in...they've already got my email because I have one of the new Tavor Bullpups on order as well from them, but I suppose they need it for each individual order.

 

If I wasn't getting the new rifle I would indeed get get two of the above mentioned goodies but one is all I can do for now, so I must choose wisely! I know the MKA-1919 will need exstensive mods to be what I want it to be but I'm keeping track of an auction where I may get it for a tad under $800 and then customize as I go along...IDK! Choices, choices...

The only thing I would do to the V12 would be a different stock and I could live with the standard one till then...choices!

 

John.

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

CJJ! C'mon... You're asking this question on the SAIGA 12 forum.... Hands down, it's the winner.

 

To be deadly honest about it, I wouldn't be trying to buy anything in this crackpot market... Hold off for a few months then rethink the cost vs. value debate.

[Captain John Jarrett 0]

That is actually very good advice, which I may take to hear,t prices being what they are. Sad fact is is that I looked at all the above the middle of last year when prices were sane and passed them over...swift kick in the pants is what I deserve for not appreciating a good buy when I see one!!

 

John.

[Maxwelhse 1,285]

I'm giving that advice as a chump that should have taken that advice. I bought my S12 right after Gabby got shot and the ATF was rumored to be making the S12 a DD. I paid just slightly under $800 for my IZ-109 OTD... You can even find prices better than that in this market right now!

 

I was a sucker. Don't be one yourself!

 

Now that the sermon is over, I'm still damn happy I bought it and don't care what it cost. It makes for a hard internal debate...

[sosafe 0]

I just bought a Saiga-12. It has the self-adjusting (sic?) gas system. On the bolt are the numbers "463". The last 3 digits of the serial number are also "463". The import/conversion is by Legion USA, Inc. Which model is this?

 

I find that light loads do not cycle well. Anything to do other than not shoot light loads?

[gunfun 3,931]

Basically the same port drilling and friction work as the adjustable models. Port size may be different though, so I would strongly recommend starting with reduced friction and then stepping up port size in small increments until you get the desired function.