Confused on what can be done with saiga

[mrapathy2000 0]

I have read usc 18 chapter 44 AWB crud. and some post in this forum. I have 2 saiga rifles and love them. looking at getting a 12 gauge shotgun either saiga or pump remington or mossberg.

 

confused with what can be done to saiga-12. it has detachable magazine so its got one evil feature how about a pistol grip? will it take ak fire controll group,stock and pg just like the rifles? can gas piston be replaced with ak?

 

have heard the 410 version is convertible cause its caliber and not gauge though after reading usc18chptr44 whole thing looks mudy to me. is it DD with pistol grip or what?

 

could someone please clear this up for me or is the group in this forum to busy fighting amongst each other.

[NedPepper 0]

Muddy and I'm sure it will get muddier. I'm not one of those that believe the 'left' will go away. It is too easy to blame the woes of the world on gun violence and it is real hard to defend on principle. IF only the 'fathers' would have written it to be lawyer-stupid proof!

 

Bottom line from this newbee: Can't have a detachable mag with a semi-auto shotgun..to include the 410 shotgun.

 

When I grow up I wanna be an ATF guy. cya

Edited April 5, 2004 by NedPepper

[KySoldier 2]

The detachable mag counts as an evil feature, if you add another it becomes an "assault weapon." So no pistol grip.

[mrapathy2000 0]

it was section for rifles that got me and the use of "at least"

 

a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -

(i)

a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii)

a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

(iii)

a bayonet mount;

(iv)

a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and

(v)

a grenade launcher;

magazine on rifle not prohibited.

 

shotgun section sucks. would of been nice if they didnt exclude tube or magazine as counting as evil feature. 1 would of been nice. maybe provision as to keeping the butt stock and having pistol grip ok as you keep certain length to it for the overall length crud elsewhere.

 

a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of -

(i)

a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii)

a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

(iii)

a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and

(iv)

an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

 

then you got 922®

 

Muddy and I'm sure it will get muddier. I'm not one of those that believe the 'left' will go away. It is too easy to blame the woes of the world on gun violence and it is real hard to defend on principle. IF only the 'fathers' would have wriiten it to be lawer-stupid proof!

you dont need to preach it to me. I have read it all day long for number of years. btw "A WELL REGULATED MILITIA, BEING NECESSARY TO THE SECURITY OF A FREE STATE, THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED"

 

it says nothing about hunting, nothing about national guard was no such thing as national guard when the document was released just militia. title 10>subtitle A> Part 1>chapter 13>sec 311

 

Sec. 311. - Militia: composition and classes

 

(a)

The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

 

(

The classes of the militia are -

 

(1)

the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

 

(2)

the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia

Bottom line from this newbee: Can't have a detachable mag with a semi-auto shotgun..to include the 410 shotgun.

semi-auto shotguns seem to be able to have a magazine or 5 round feeding tube. begining to get this drilled into my head AAggghhh! the pain of legalize on my mind.

 

When I grow up I wanna be an ATF guy. cya

why so you can get a gun the rest of us serfs cant legaly own or to just be an $%s like a elitist democrat where you would enforce the infringement of other peoples rights and tout only you should have certain rights and items.

 

not that I think all democrats are bad Zell miller sounds like ok guy. sure their are some good ATF agents all probably are not jack booted thugs.

[Bvamp 604]

Simply putting it.

 

You cannot add a pistol grip, telescoping or folding stock, a bayonet lug (which some bipod mounts are classified as curiously), and you cant use any mag that accepts more than 5 rounds, due to the definition of the high capacity magazine under its OWN seperate law. (Im not going to the ATF site to look it up again. Im sure you understand LOL. Its there tho if you want to look hard enough)

 

If you plan to get the .410 saiga, which is a rifle caliber, the semi-automatic rifle list is what you would refer to, and it will be legal to have ten round mags.

 

You CAN cut the barrel down to 18" NOT INCLUDING the choke if its removeable.

You CAN swap a couple of the trigger group's parts for better AK parts.

You CAN put a 37mm launcher on a .410 saiga, but NOT a saiga 12.

You CAN use some special ammo if its legal in your STATE. States that have these laws, it is a FELONY to posses banned ammo PER ROUND!.

You CAN mount them onto a gatling gun kit.

 

There is not a whole lot you can do except have fun with what you got. Great gun, good price. Get two.

Edited April 1, 2004 by Bvamp

[KySoldier 2]

Why can't you put a 37mm launcher on an S-12? ...its just a flare launcher.

[Bvamp 604]

Im sure you can test the waters, but I wouldnt try it, KySoldier. That is another one of those things that is buried in the ATF laws and doesnt expose itself easily.

[Silverfox 0]

i THINK that the launcher would put this in the "destructive device" catagory.. i know that it is considered one with the 40mm launchers ..im not sure if they specify a size or not..but i would bet they dont...i think it just says gernade launcher ...

[NedPepper 0]

If you plan to get the .410 saiga, which is a rifle caliber, the semi-automatic rifle list is what you would refer to, and it will be legal to have ten round mags.

 

Would anyone like to comment or better yet..prove this! I have a Saiga 410 and I would very much like to shorten the butt stock so my kids can enjoy this shotgun. I'd settle for any type of stock that would let me put the trigger parts back where they should be and allow me to install a(any type) shorter stock. (I'm willing to forgo the 10 round mags..or atleast save 'em for a rainy day. If I did the euro conversion correctly-thats a $70 hunk of polymer)

[Bvamp 604]

Silverfox: they do specify size for launchers. 40mm is banned as a destructive device. 37mm is what you use on a boat to fire signal flares with. But I still dont think you can put one of those on a 12 gauge.

 

NedPepper: If you want to prove the .410 is a rifle, go buy a 10 rounder for it. Post ban rifles are limited to ten rounds, post ban semi-auto shotguns are limited to 5 rounds. You wouldnt be able to buy the 10 rounders for your .410 if it fell into shotgun territory. That is why in some places you cannot hunt during shotgun season with .410

[KySoldier 2]

Bvamp, ever been to www.37mm.com? They have some good info on launchers including this...

 

Classification of Gas/Flare Guns with Anti-Personnel Ammunition as Destructive Devices

Recently ATF issued ATF Ruling 95-3, holding that 37/38 mm gas/flare guns possessed with "anti-personnel" ammunition, consisting of cartridges containing wood pellets, rubber pellets or balls, or bean bags are destructive devices as degined in the Gun Control Act and the National Firearms Act and require registration to be lawfully possessed.

Devices designed for expelling tear gas or pyrotechnic signals have been held to be exempt from the destructive device definition. However, when a gas/flare gun is possessed with "anti-personnel" ammunition, it is then capable of use as a weapon. Thus, it becomes a firearm and is no longer exempt from the destructive device definition.

 

Any person who will possess a gas/flare gun in combination with "anti-personnel" ammunition must register the making of a destructive device prior to the acquistion of both the gun and the "anti-personnel" ammunition.

[Bvamp 604]

Yup, Ive seen that law too. I havent stuck a 37mm on anythign yet, because i highly doubt i could resist trying it out with buckshot or a wooden plug. Flare gun for 300 bucks and you WILL get hassled by the cops every time they see you with it. Just aint worth it to me to make a gun look "cooler". I dont think you can put one on shotgun gauge weapons either way tho. Maybe Im misinformed on that one.

[KySoldier 2]

Well, I think these launchers are classified the same as the little pistol launcher you get OTC at Wal-Mart, just that, a flare launcher. A friend of mine bought one for like $200 for his AR, but you are right, they are really just for looks and to add a little flare to your weapon.

[Bvamp 604]

boy, ky, you are a witty one today

[NedPepper 0]

and to add a little flare  to your weapon.

[KySoldier 2]

I'm just in a good mood from Knob Creek's Spring Machine Gun Shoot...got some cool things. If any of you went, I was the guy with the S-12 with custom wood stock slung on his shoulder; had at least 10 people ask me if it was for sale! Saw one there for sale for $550, it had the trigger moved already and a thumbhole stock put on it.

[VegasGunner 0]

So it is possible to move the trigger forward on the Saigas? What kind of work is required, and such? I didn't see anything in a search through the forums, and I'm out of time here at the moment. What sort of internal differences are there between the "forward trigger" and "rear trigger", and is there any sort of operational difference?

 

One thing that makes me curious - the specific law says "a pistol grip that does not protrude significantly beneath the action of the weapon." This seems to imply that one can cut the stock off a straight-stock Saiga, and use that. Anyone know if it's true, or does this fall under the Write The ATF file?

 

On the topic of Fun With Saiga-12s, a little MS Paint Whimsy:

 

Cheap K-Var Bullpup Version

12C with M203

Standard PG from Saiga with 203

[KySoldier 2]

"a pistol grip that does not protrude significantly beneath the action of the weapon."

Hadn't seen that law...but yes it is physically possible to add a PG, however illegal since you would have a shotgun with a detachable magazine along with a a "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action."

 

If you moved the trigger back to its true (forward) postion, I would suggest putting an AK47 thumbhole stock on the weapon. Although people here sometimes argue with me that it is now considered a PG, historically and textually, thumbhole stocks are not. I can not offer advice on how to do this, never really explored the idea in depth.

 

I like the photos, I make some of my own before I buy accessories to get an idea what the outcome is going to be. Here were some of the ideas in my head before I bought my S-12. I like to argue the legalities too!

[VegasGunner 0]

well, the "protruding consipicuously" doesn't appear to apply to things like the curved "pistol grip" on such things as the modern Remington shotguns, since that does protrude - but not, apparently, conspicuously.

 

...and how is this inconspicuous, anyway?

 

Anyway, that's originally what I was thinking. For sheer silly factor, I wonder if you could mount a SPAS-12 cage upside down over the gas tube and launcher mount, to get something to mount rails and such on. It's a steel heat shield, so it'd hold up to the recoil and would stand the stress of mounting lights, or lasers.

 

Be weird looking.

 

And as a complete aside, this forum - for the Russian-made Saiga shotguns - needs a bearskin-hat-clad smiley.

[G O B 3,516]

Somebody sells a front grip with 3 rails,one underneath and one on each side. I didn't bookmark it because it is totally rediculous-yes you can mount EVERYTHING-but where can you hold the silly thing?

 

G O B

[VegasGunner 0]

Stick a vertical foregrip on it? It's not a pistol grip, according to the ATF (I checked with them personally at SHOT 2004)... Where'd you find the triple rail?

[KySoldier 2]

Just order the rail from BlackJackBuffers, the rail and vertical grip package should fit. I bought it for my S-12 but put it on an AR, I might put it on the S-12 this weekend! If I do I'll post pics

[G O B 3,516]

Really don't remember where that 3 rail fore grip was,I was laughing too hard!

Just get a 2 screw mount rail from midway and put it where you want.

 

G O B

[Mephis 82]

Bvamp, ever been to www.37mm.com? They have some good info on launchers including this...

 

Classification of Gas/Flare Guns with Anti-Personnel Ammunition as Destructive Devices

Recently ATF issued ATF Ruling 95-3, holding that 37/38 mm gas/flare guns possessed with "anti-personnel" ammunition, consisting of cartridges containing wood pellets, rubber pellets or balls, or bean bags are destructive devices as degined in the Gun Control Act and the National Firearms Act and require registration to be lawfully possessed.

Devices designed for expelling tear gas or pyrotechnic signals have been held to be exempt from the destructive device definition. However, when a gas/flare gun is possessed with "anti-personnel" ammunition, it is then capable of use as a weapon. Thus, it becomes a firearm and is no longer exempt from the destructive device definition.

 

Any person who will possess a gas/flare gun in combination with "anti-personnel" ammunition must register the making of a destructive device prior to the acquistion of both the gun and the "anti-personnel" ammunition.

Basicly that means "You can shoot someone with a leathal round, thats not destructive, but a rubber round, thats just from HELL"