Jump to content

One of our worst fears... (Reason to replace rail?)


Recommended Posts

I stumbled upon a video from another overseas VEPR 12 owner as his polymer rail managed to break with his Eotech was mounted on it...

 

(Please take into consideration the temperature of the environment which may have altered the integrity of the polymer rail, he also states this may have been a defective rail)

 

broken-rail-2_zpsf86dfc49.jpg

 

broken-rail-1_zps0a939e64.jpg

 

Jump to 0:41...

 

This is not a thread to start trashing the VEPR 12, I posted this, so VEPR 12 owners are aware of it, so we can possible come to a conclusion of what really happened and to decide on the solution for it...

 

This may be a very good reason to have it replaced with the aluminum version from CSS...

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well... this sucks...

 

This is definitely an issue, but it is hard to ascertain how serious of an issue it is. This is only the second broke rail I have seen, and how many are out in the wild? Especially outside of the US. Some thoughts:

 

The other Vepr I saw with a broke rail had the optic mounted way too for forward, this video, while mounted further back still seems like shells could catch it. Maybe all the way back? Maybe not.

 

Its one of three things imo: 1) Rails are garbage and a lot more will be seen like this 2) Rails are for the most part gtg but there are some bad apples. How many? 3) Rails are gtg when used under specifications ie RDS placement and torque of RDS set screws. I can't but help wonder if both of these instances were from over torquing screws.

 

As far as the CSS rail goes, it could be a problem solver, or could be an ever worse problem creator. Time will tell. I have not seen any design details or testing by CSS, third-party businesses like MAC or anyone for that matter, including Joe Schmoe on any random forum or blog/ newsletter. Not implying there is anything wrong with it, but I want to see a better handled launch of a product from a company and read some reviews before I go modding my firearm in that manner.

 

Would like to hear PappaZorro's take on this...

Edited by Muffman
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

The Izhmash Saiga 030 rail is machined steel. Not sure why Molot decided to use polymer. I'd expect more from the RPK factory considering everything else on the gun is heavy duty. It's a major design flaw. This isn't the first and certainly won't be the last VEPR 12 with this issue.

Link to post
Share on other sites
The Izhmash Saiga 030 rail is machined steel. Not sure why Molot decided to use polymer.

 

 

cost and manufacturing shortcut. you still have to machine the rail, which takes time, polymer; mold injected, pops out, ready to put on after a few trimmings.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an EOTECH on mine . Lets hope it doesn't self destruct too. sad.png

 

Would that be covered under the lifetime warrany? I'd hope they would ship you a new rail before having you send it in though.

Edited by papa_celms
Link to post
Share on other sites
All you really have to do is put one of the after market hinged rails on. It's not like it's un-fixable.

I understand that and considered it. I just don't feel I should have to invest in a fix that shouldn't need fixing.

I agree.. For the money we coughed up for these things, they should not have polymer rails that are canted and can break.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Looks like you tightened the mount clamps too tight....just sayin. Thats a pretty clean break.

Don't blame the guy because the VEPR rail is a pos. Come on now. Just admit VEPR's have a design flaw.

 

 

All you really have to do is put one of the after market hinged rails on. It's not like it's un-fixable.

I understand that and considered it. I just don't feel I should have to invest in a fix that shouldn't need fixing.

 

 

That's why I bought a Saiga.

Edited by S12KS-K
Link to post
Share on other sites

I admit it is a flaw. However that does not negate the fact that both of the two broke rails we have seen( out of how many worldwide?) could be a result of tightening the RDS out of spec. Many things can break from over tightening, which why believe it or not, someone invented tools like the torque wrench to help prevent this. You might be surprised but there is a huge market in these tools, and many manufactures provide specifications on the proper amount of torque. This is very big in the automotive industry. Unfortunately Molot did not provide this information in the manual, but whether from the factory, or discovered by the community, there is going to be a magic # to tighten these too. Exceed and risk failure of rail. Do not meet, and risk RDS not holding zero.

 

That's why I bought a Saiga.

 

In that case this is for you:

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/forum/2-saiga-12/

 

It is link to get you to right section of forum, you have mistakenly entered the Vepr 12 thread. Is ok.

Edited by Muffman
Link to post
Share on other sites
I admit it is a flaw. However that does not negate the fact that both of the two broke rails we have seen( out of how many worldwide?) could be a result of tightening the RDS out of spec. Many things can break from over tightening, which why believe it or not, someone invented tools like the torque wrench to help prevent this. You might be surprised but there is a huge market in these tools, and many manufactures provide specifications on the proper amount of torque. This is very big in the automotive industry. Unfortunately Molot did not provide this information in the manual, but whether from the factory, or discovered by the community, there is going to be a magic # to tighten these too. Exceed and risk failure of rail. Do not meet, and risk RDS not holding zero.

LOL! Jesus tap dancing christ.. You think the Russians engineered a plastic rail to be a specific tq spec?

It was just a cheap way around what Izhmash did the RIGHT way.. you know.. some people do things the right way.. other people jig rig shit.. and get mad because they know they spent $1,500 on a jig rig..

 

Denial's a helluva drug..

Edited by S12KS-K
Link to post
Share on other sites

1. So you know how to edit a post, but still double posted?
2. Caps lock l-o-l, Jesus tap dancing, whatever a jig is, and references Chapelle show? I checked the link I posted, it works, why you not use?
3. $1500? Most people in this thread, like me, paid $999. Also most people in this thread, like me, have a Vepr 12, or plan on getting a Vepr 12, unlike you... please refer to previous link for remedy
4. I do not think that nor did I imply that. They engineered a metal one. Then to cut costs per management, engineers went back and designed polymer rail. In most cases you do not design for a specific torque, it is discovered in testing. If factory did not discover proper torque spec, then community will. Whether it be quantitative, or general layman specs.
5. Saiga 12 does not cut corners? I thought you had thinner receiver meant for smaller caliber round and cast parts?
6. Get mad? I laugh. You are the one trolling a thread for a shotgun you do not own. Shotgun envy? Please once again, refer to posted link to route to correct thread.

Edited by Muffman
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
I admit it is a flaw. However that does not negate the fact that both of the two broke rails we have seen( out of how many worldwide?) could be a result of tightening the RDS out of spec. Many things can break from over tightening, which why believe it or not, someone invented tools like the torque wrench to help prevent this. You might be surprised but there is a huge market in these tools, and many manufactures provide specifications on the proper amount of torque. This is very big in the automotive industry. Unfortunately Molot did not provide this information in the manual, but whether from the factory, or discovered by the community, there is going to be a magic # to tighten these too. Exceed and risk failure of rail. Do not meet, and risk RDS not holding zero.

LOL! Jesus tap dancing christ.. You think the Russians engineered a plastic rail to be a specific tq spec?

It was just a cheap way around what Izhmash did the RIGHT way.. you know.. some people do things the right way.. other people jig rig shit.. and get mad because they know they spent $1,500 on a jig rig..

 

Denial's a helluva drug..

Its not rocket science. Over torquing a plastic rail will break it, especially when an optic mounted too far forward and the ejecting shells make contact with optic mount.

 

My contacts in Russia state the Vepr can be ordered with an aluminum rail, but were not. It is what it is. No denial here.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
LOL! Jesus tap dancing christ.. You think the Russians engineered a plastic rail to be a specific tq spec?

It was just a cheap way around what Izhmash did the RIGHT way.. you know.. some people do things the right way.. other people jig rig shit.. and get mad because they know they spent $1,500 on a jig rig..

 

Denial's a helluva drug..

 

Mine cost $995 ready to roll from the factory.

 

Is that a Tapco buttstock and a Molot grip in your avatar and is yours from Legion?

 

You really sound like a redneck douchebag bragging up Izhmash and trying ever so hard to dog on the V12. Reminds me of the clowns who talk shit about one brand of vehicle while touting another (ie; Ford vs. Chevy), as if they built it from scratch themselves.

(I own a V12 and S12, so fugoff)

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I can appreciate the V-12 without having any love for the plastic rail. Have an S-12, Benelli M4, 870, KSG, MKA, etc as well. There is something about each I would change if I could.

 

I know what I paid, and even at that price, there's really no good reason for a plastic rail IMO. I doubt anyone really *WANTS* a plastic rail over a metal one. These are going for ~1500 now, I think... might even be the new retail price. I think before any even were breaking this was predicted, not a surprise. It's not just the fact that it is plastic it is how thin the material is where it breaks.....

 

Not the importers fault, but if you want it changed, you have to let them know. If you want plastic rails, tell 'em it's awesome. Anyway, that's all I will say about it.

 

I put a metal one on mine....

 

opNDOQs.jpg

 

 

EDIT: LOL, just realized I posted a picture of my V-12 with my new aluminium replacement rail with PLASTIC rails attached to the handguard. Have fun with that.

Edited by ec4321
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I had a Sierra Ordinance install it, the railed gas block, chop the barrel and perm install the brake - so Lee from S.O. may be able to talk about the details on the install of the rail.

 

It comes with three screws, one larger than the other - apparently an analog to the larger rivet - and a roll pin. Hope to know more soon. There was another thread where folks wanted to know more about the CSS rail results, etc...

Link to post
Share on other sites
I had a Sierra Ordinance install it, the railed gas block, chop the barrel and perm install the brake - so Lee from S.O. may be able to talk about the details on the install of the rail.

 

It comes with three screws, one larger than the other - apparently an analog to the larger rivet - and a roll pin. Hope to know more soon. There was another thread where folks wanted to know more about the CSS rail results, etc...

Cool.

 

About the three screws, I was told by my Russian buddy Viktor, that the rail had to be riveted in a certain order. The biggest being the number 1, and the 3rd from the muzzle being the second rivet, and finally the middle. He told me that if they are not done in this order, then they will come out canted like we seen. I couldnt tell you though, on how true that is, but Id like to have an aluminum rail myself. But he also claims that they were most likely ordered with the rail we have. Its hard to say bros. I trust him, but even he cant say for certain, as the Molot boys wont come off of that info according to him. lol.

 

I dont really mind it, as I know not to mount optics too close to the front, if I even run them at all. The rail really wasnt the selling point for me. I liked the hinged cover, magwell, factory pistol grip, RPK handguards, RPK sights and modified safety lever more than I did the railed dust cover IMO. Too me it was just icing on the cake. But still sad to see some of them fail. Its still a bad ass shottie, and I'd gladly pay more than what I did for it, after shooting it and seeing how well it performs with all the ammo I fed mine with zero failures.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree El Capitan. The other big plus is all the serializing of parts. That detail to me is way up in the cool factor.

Yes. It was a cool surprise with my Vepr rifles, and when I seen it with this shotgun, it just screamed badassery. beer.gif

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

It was probably a cheesy concession for importer pricing concerns. Perhaps the steel rail option is a $150+ upgrade? Who knows.

 

I doubt it will affect me with the T1 and Kobra, but its not milspec in my opinion.

 

Sometimes you gotta call a spade a spade.

Edited by Thor's Hammer
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×
×
  • Create New...