bigpond73 0 Posted May 2, 2003 Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 Hi everyone. Soon, I will be the proud owner of a Saiga-12, whom I purchased from a well known member (not sure if he's a member here) of many boards. It should have been dropped of in the mail yesterday, and hopefully I will have my hands on it soon. It has been modified, by moving the trigger group forward, and installing a dragunov stock (ATF, so far, says it's legal). Look forward to browsing the boards, meeting members, and of course, shooting my new gauge! I'll post some pictures when I get it. I do have a couple of questions though. 1. I believe my shotgun has a choke on it, does this mean I can't shoot slugs from it? 2. What are the different types of chokes that came from the factory, and how will I be able to tell which one mine has (and what exactly does IC mean?)? 3. I believe my shotgun has a two position gas switch. Which one is used for what? I have seen different posts on which is actually the correct way. 4. This shotgun has a scope rail on it. Anyone have any luck with aiming devices, like armson day/night OEG's? 5. What type of finish came on this rifle from the factory? I think that about covers it now. Thanks all, and again, glad to be part of the Saiga Shotgun Community. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Makc 64 Posted May 2, 2003 Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 Welcome my friend! I hope you enjoy this forum!!! First of... It has been modified, by moving the trigger group forward, and installing a dragunov stock (ATF, so far, says it's legal). I'm not sure this is correct - unless somthing changed lately - that makes it a DD! Dragunov stock is considered to be a pistol grip according to ATF... BUT if it is legal - this is the way to go! To answer some of your questions: 1. What kind of choke - Is it threaded bbl or fixed choke? 2. IC means Improved Cylinder - how to tell depends on the answer to question 1. 3. Here is the correct info - http://www.saiga-12.com/forum/index.php?ac...act=ST&f=2&t=47 4. armson day/night OEG's - Sorry, I'm no help here! I use (and love) my Cobra! More info about Cobra sights is here - http://www.saiga-12.com/forum/index.php?ac...act=ST&f=2&t=41 5. Finish on my guns looks like either high-temp paint or low grade powder-coating... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigpond73 0 Posted May 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 Thanks Makc! It is a smoothbore barrel. As far as the Dragunov Stock is concerned, the guy I am getting it from wrote a letter to the ATF, and they said, they have not made a determination yet for the Saiga-12. They may very well one day say it is not legal, then I would have to change it back to it's original configuration (I am getting the original stock with it also). If anyone has any information saying "for sure" that it is not legal, please let me know, don't need anyone knocking on my door to confiscate my new shotgun. I'm not in any way trying to be illegal, but yes, the Dragunov Stock is the way to go, and looks nice to boot! Thanks again. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CheeseHead 0 Posted May 2, 2003 Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 (edited) Hey all, I found this site yesterday and rushed out to get my own Saiga-12ga. I know that the recomended gun is the 19" threaded barrel, but i bought the 22" fix full gun. I will have an after market scre choke system installed adn then put a TruGlo adjustable choke on the gun. I also liked the cammo options on that gun. I ordered the Woodtech design simply because I didn't know what the heck it was. Well I will see it for myself as soon as Mr. UPS gets it to my dealer. Ok time for Newbie Q and A: 1) If my gun gets here without the bolt-hold-back bar, hoe hard is it to install the one from this site? 2) Why is a Dragunov Stock not ok on a Saiga12 but is on a mini-14 rifle? 3) Correct me if I'm wrong on this but for a long gun to be considered a SAW it needs to have a detachable magazine and 2 or more of the following: * Folding or telescopic stock * Pistol grip protruding conspicuously beneath the stock * Bayonet mount * Flash suppressor or threaded barrel * Grenade launcher So a Saiga12 without the threaded barrel and with a fixed stock but with a pistol gip would not be a SAW under the AWB. It has the detachable clip but only one of the other features. So what makes it effected by the AWB? Also a high capacity clip is defined as more than 10 rounds. Wouldn't this mean a 10rd clip is for the Saiga12 is ok? Also Title 18, Chapter 44, Section 921 of the United States Code states defines the term ''semiautomatic assault weapon'' means - (A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as - then continues to list a whole bunch of names and other features. The only thing it says about shotguns are about the drum fed shotguns. A 12ga is not measured as a caliber so how can this law even have anything to do with a Saiga 12ga? Thanks in advance Edited May 2, 2003 by CheeseHead Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Makc 64 Posted May 2, 2003 Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 Welcome CheeseHead! Q and A:1. Have you ever done any work on the reciever? It is not really hard, but you need to have some skills... 2. Dragunov stock is considered to be a pistol grip according to ATF, and Pistol Grip is a "No-No" in Saiga shotguns because they have a detachable magazine - the detachable mag and a pistol grip combination will make it a DD. (that is to the best of my knowladge) 3) Correct me if I'm wrong on this but for a long gun to be considered a SAW it needs to have a detachable magazine and 2 or more of the following:* Folding or telescopic stock * Pistol grip protruding conspicuously beneath the stock * Bayonet mount * Flash suppressor or threaded barrel * Grenade launcher So a Saiga12 without the threaded barrel and with a fixed stock but with a pistol gip would not be a SAW under the AWB. It has the detachable clip but only one of the other features. So what makes it effected by the AWB? ^^^ All that goes for a rifle not a shotgun... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CheeseHead 0 Posted May 2, 2003 Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 (edited) As I stated above (I edited it as you responded) in Title 18, Chapter 44, Section 921 it says you need the clip and 2 of the other features. With the gun without the threaded barrel and with a pistol grip only has one of those features. This looks to me like a grip on a fixed stock Saiga would be ok. I also see people talking about the ATF making rulles as to weather a certain stock or gun is ok. The ATF HAS NO POWER TO MAKE LAW. This means they can say "no don't do that" all they want but untill a federal governing body say it is law, they can not enforce thier own made up rule. That would be like a COP saying you can't chew gum then arresting you for it. The ATF simply enforces the law like any other police orginisation. This mean unless your stock has features that are explicitly outlawed you do not need to contact the ATF about it. It it has reatures that are outlawed, then you wouldn't want to contact them anyway because they would fine you. Also since shotgun is not mentioned in the Ban why all the hubbub? Or is it and I missed it? Edited May 2, 2003 by CheeseHead Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CheeseHead 0 Posted May 2, 2003 Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 Never mind my bad found it (D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of - (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (iii)a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and (iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine. What a crock! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigpond73 0 Posted May 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 I realize all the differences in AW and shotguns, and their laws. I will see if I can get a copy of the letter from the guy I am buying it from, and scan it and post it. Either that (or unless I misread, maybe he called them, I don't remember), then I will try and find the post as to where I read that it's legal. The guy I am buying it from is pretty well respected, and I'm sure he wouldn't sell me something illegal. But, even if it is, then I will just change out the trigger back to it's original position, and put the original stock on it, and then in that interim period of the AW ban expiring/waiting for renewal, then I will put it back on. I just might have to wait a year, but with a great shotgun like the Saiga-12, it will be worth it. Thanks all! Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigpond73 0 Posted May 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 Here's what I found. This is in reference to the Saiga 12 and a Dragunov Stock. The first person posted: "I ASSUME I can move the trigger group just like on a regular Saiga AK. Could I then technically and legally install the Advanced Tech. Dragunov buttstock?" The guy I am buying my Saiga 12 from posted this in reply: "I have already done it and it works great. I put the pins back in the rear location to fill the holes. The SVD stock took a bit of filing to get on, but if you take your time and fit it as you go you will have no problems. The other thing you will run into is that you have to round the front edge of the bolt catch. It sits right inside the trigger guard and rubs your trigger finger when you shoot. A nice little pointy piece of metal...... Anyway, I ceched with the ATF and the importers about the SVD style stock, and until the ATF comes back and changes their minds and rules that the thumbhole stock is a pistolgrip (like they did on the SKS and SVD) it does not throw it into the AW ban catagory. But dont get caught with the normal AK stock. Email me directly if you have any further questions. And if you know anyone who wants one, I am selling mine as I have just picked up a LEO/dealer sample with the side folder and pistolgrip." So............................everything should be legal. BTW, this was posted in AK-47.net on 4/18/03. Hope this helps. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigpond73 0 Posted May 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2003 Well, got my shotgun, and it does look great, can't wait to go out and shoot it. The barrel is smoothbore and the choke says "C (0,0) on it. I assume then that I can shoot slugs out of it with this choke on, correct? Thanks all, and I will try and get some pictures soon. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Makc 64 Posted May 5, 2003 Report Share Posted May 5, 2003 0.0 - Sure you can! Have fun at the range! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CheeseHead 0 Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 Ok so is this stock an ATF aproved "thumbhole" stock or a banned pistol grip stock? Also how would this work on a 12? The trigger on this gun as well as the LE 12's seem to be way forward. Is it possible for me (Joe Shooter) to modify my 12 to take a stock like this? Or would a gunsmith be required? If this sucker would work on my gun and the ATF didn't bother me about it, I will put it on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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