gregomega 929 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 Has riveted FCG and doesn't accept Vepr/Saiga mags. they look like rock and lock magwell mags....wtf $699 not terrible. wonder how it functions. who is going to be the ginnie pig Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dolomite_supafly 56 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 I wonder how much will interchange as far as parts go. I would like to have a spare bolt, bolt carrier and gas block. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
storm6490 2,768 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 Is that a plastic front sight post? Fuck China! 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
haugpatr 972 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 If they were taking the time to copy the Saiga-12, the least they could have done is copy the mags! If it accepted Saiga mags it might be worthwhile, with it's own mags, no interest. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Conscript 99 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 PASS! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
avnate 335 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 I think it's funny how some are gonna think it's trash.... From what I see they looks to have added features you are not getting on a Saiga-12. Dropped the clamp sight bar in favor of a top rail that is hinged.... Looks like there is a LRBHO... and a threaded choke.... and another rail on the gas block too????.... But hey never mind that. It's made in China and has a funny name, it must be garbage! (sarcasm) I guess no one wants a MAK90 or Poly Tech because it's also made in China. Lest not forget China as well as other countries have done real well making firearms from acquired Russian designs.... and improved upon them. Like the Israeli Galil, Polish Archer and so on. At least wait till range reports come out before condemning what could potentially be a great product. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BB1980 71 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 The version 2 is $50 more, has a magwell, and skeletonized stock. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dolomite_supafly 56 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 The front sight looks like it is molded into the block. So it is probably steel like the block is. I wonder if these could be modded to use Saiga mags. Can't be that hard. Everyone wants to think China makes crap. Well you get what you pay for. I would not have a $100 S12 copy but this might actually be pretty good. Look at where most of the industrial machines have been coming from for a few decades now. China makes good stuff, you just have to be willing to pay for it. I have bought a lot of stuff from China over the years and as long as you don't try to buy the cheapest version you are going to find the quality might surprise you. I can think of several big brand AR component makers that copied Chinese products then tacked on 200%. I suspect that some even have their stuff made in China. The whole region is making quality stuff. Leupold spotting scopes are made in the Phillipines. Weaver has scopes made over there as well. Seems like those two companies would not risk their reputation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
haugpatr 972 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 I think it's funny how some are gonna think it's trash.... From what I see they looks to have added features you are not getting on a Saiga-12. Dropped the clamp sight bar in favor of a top rail that is hinged.... Looks like there is a LRBHO... and a threaded choke.... and another rail on the gas block too????.... But hey never mind that. It's made in China and has a funny name, it must be garbage! (sarcasm) I guess no one wants a MAK90 or Poly Tech because it's also made in China. Lest not forget China as well as other countries have done real well making firearms from acquired Russian designs.... and improved upon them. Like the Israeli Galil, Polish Archer and so on. At least wait till range reports come out before condemning what could potentially be a great product. I have nothing against Chinese guns, I own a few Chinese AK's, I just don't want to have to buy all new mags for a different gun, if the mags were interchangeable with S12 mags I wouldn't have anything against trying one, but I have no interest in a 5rd mag fed shotgun. I am sure eventually there will be more support for these guns, but considering you aren't really saving any money over a Saiga 12, why not just get the S12 and enjoy all the after market parts and options? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
avnate 335 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 I think it's funny how some are gonna think it's trash.... From what I see they looks to have added features you are not getting on a Saiga-12. Dropped the clamp sight bar in favor of a top rail that is hinged.... Looks like there is a LRBHO... and a threaded choke.... and another rail on the gas block too????.... But hey never mind that. It's made in China and has a funny name, it must be garbage! (sarcasm) I guess no one wants a MAK90 or Poly Tech because it's also made in China. Lest not forget China as well as other countries have done real well making firearms from acquired Russian designs.... and improved upon them. Like the Israeli Galil, Polish Archer and so on. At least wait till range reports come out before condemning what could potentially be a great product. I have nothing against Chinese guns, I own a few Chinese AK's, I just don't want to have to buy all new mags for a different gun, if the mags were interchangeable with S12 mags I wouldn't have anything against trying one, but I have no interest in a 5rd mag fed shotgun. I am sure eventually there will be more support for these guns, but considering you aren't really saving any money over a Saiga 12, why not just get the S12 and enjoy all the after market parts and options? I'll just wait till I get one in hand or seeing a review before drawing a conclusion... I think the idea of this was to add the features most of you want without having a Vepr12 price tag. It is yet to be determined if it is a quality build or not. Just looking at what's on paper. Comparing Apple to apples.... what an IZ-109 costs to this ($600-$700).... dollar for dollar this would be a better investment with more features out of the box if it was compatible with most current S12 accessories. I'd think someone had enough brains to go "..... if we can get a way to use existing SGM mags in this???? Instant after market success!" Then again if this has a LRBHO the mags most likely are going to be proprietary. IF not and they are the same as the S12 LRBHO version... then adds another plus. Swappable mags. Chalk up another for the Chinese. If not... someone in charge of projects is an idiot. Possible discussing point. Given we hadn't had a boat with Saigas in a while one could make the argument that most of the tooling was sold off to China as the new series of AKs are being introduced (as was the case with the SKS to AK switch). Tin foil hat topic. LOL 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 I have chinese guns and they're great. But I stopped buying guns made in china years ago for reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of their guns. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
semper299 284 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 I have chinese guns and they're great. But I stopped buying guns made in china years ago for reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of their guns. This ^^^ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gregomega 929 Posted April 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 (edited) my first initial impression from seeing what on it, Vs. the Standard IZ109 Pros & cons: -has railed dust cover, but could also be a negative depending on if it hinders function and if they are crookid/canted like some of the veprs then that could also be a negative. IZ109 has scope mount rail. depends on the mount/scope -Has rubber buttpad on the stock where as the IZ109 doesnt have one. but who uses those anyway. I have 4 in my left over box. -LRBHO will be a plus, hopefully it functions better than the saiga/veprs do. most all that I have, one of each, vary on weather they work or not depending on mag maker. IZ109s only have manual BHO. -IZ109 only has 1 & 2 Setting. Fury has what looks to be 3, but again, who doesn't replace their old one with an MD arms or other more effective plug. Im sure a few keep the old one. -has railed gas block, useful I guess. I have yet to use mine, but it looks cool. I guess. -Sight distance seems to be the same -why they riveted the FCG and linkage is beyond me. going to make conversions alot of fun. I would have stuck to the way the russians did it if they got their old tooling. but who knows. -internally threaded chokes is a +, not my style but there are adapters for using external muzzle attachments with internal chokes so time will tell, but I see it as another mka 1919. whatever drives the price of Saiga12s down. Edited April 4, 2013 by AZG 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKpwnerer 1 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 I've converted a few saigas thanks to the info on this forum and with it's sporting configuration this firearm just seems like a nightmare to me. Price seems way high too, my last saiga (sgl12) came needing no conversion for under $900 last october. I usually get really excited about new guns, especially AK's, but this one was kind of dissapointing, I give the chinese 0 points for innovation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 Dont really care for the riveted FCG. Prolly be a pain in the ass to move it to its proper location, if theres even a hole for the tigger under that plate. Too early, but I do like the railed gas block. I have chinese guns and they're great. But I stopped buying guns made in china years ago for reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of their guns. Ditto. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SouthernOne 203 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 I'll just wait on a RUGER SR12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Agent Lemon 157 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 I am having a heart attack right now, even though I have heard about this before. Why is it that whenever the glorious motherland invents something, their greedy, polluting neighbors to the south always copy it? I don't know or care if it will be quality, but just the fact that they copy everything is offensive. INVENT SOMETHING ORIGINAL YOU FUCKS! Hopefully the introduction of these things will make the S12 become cheaper due to competition. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 I don't know or care if it will be quality, but just the fact that they copy everything is offensive. INVENT SOMETHING ORIGINAL YOU FUCKS! Listen, they invented gunpowder. What more do you want? 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maxwelhse 1,285 Posted April 5, 2013 Report Share Posted April 5, 2013 (edited) I think it's funny how some are gonna think it's trash.... From what I see they looks to have added features you are not getting on a Saiga-12. Dropped the clamp sight bar in favor of a top rail that is hinged.... Looks like there is a LRBHO... and a threaded choke.... and another rail on the gas block too????.... But hey never mind that. It's made in China and has a funny name, it must be garbage! (sarcasm) I guess no one wants a MAK90 or Poly Tech because it's also made in China. Lest not forget China as well as other countries have done real well making firearms from acquired Russian designs.... and improved upon them. Like the Israeli Galil, Polish Archer and so on. At least wait till range reports come out before condemning what could potentially be a great product. Excellent post, TAKD, but I'll add that my last China shower brush broke in less than 4 days... Seriously, my last week out of town I bought one at the local wally world and it didn't even complete my trip! Are shower brushes guns? No... Does China generally speaking make crap? Yes... Does Russia produce excellent AKs? NO DOUBT! I'll just wait till I get one in hand or seeing a review before drawing a conclusion... I think the idea of this was to add the features most of you want without having a Vepr12 price tag. Sentence 1, fair enough. I'm glad there are pioneers out there to strike the first footstep on the way to the new land.. At this point, I'm not even close to being one of them. I am happy that MANY of the vendors on here are chomping at the bit to experiment with them. Who knows? They may be a diamond in the rough. Sentence 2, I have no problem with paying for quality and I don't think most of us on here set out to buy junk or "good enough". If the CF-12 (sounds way less lame than it's full name) is a viable gun, then cool. At this point, it looks like a crappier MKA-1919, and I didn't buy one of those either. The current market for the CF-12 is about $20 more than I paid for my S-12. It's got to prove itself. edit: No offense to the MKA guys... It's a sweet piece, but the price for one done to the hilt (aluminum lower) is a bit steep for me compared to the S12! Edited April 5, 2013 by Maxwelhse Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted April 5, 2013 Report Share Posted April 5, 2013 I don't know or care if it will be quality, but just the fact that they copy everything is offensive. INVENT SOMETHING ORIGINAL YOU FUCKS! Listen, they invented gunpowder. What more do you want? Well they gave the world the Type 95 too, but sadly I cant have one. I'll settle for gunpowder. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
avnate 335 Posted April 5, 2013 Report Share Posted April 5, 2013 I think it's funny how some are gonna think it's trash.... From what I see they looks to have added features you are not getting on a Saiga-12. Dropped the clamp sight bar in favor of a top rail that is hinged.... Looks like there is a LRBHO... and a threaded choke.... and another rail on the gas block too????.... But hey never mind that. It's made in China and has a funny name, it must be garbage! (sarcasm) I guess no one wants a MAK90 or Poly Tech because it's also made in China. Lest not forget China as well as other countries have done real well making firearms from acquired Russian designs.... and improved upon them. Like the Israeli Galil, Polish Archer and so on. At least wait till range reports come out before condemning what could potentially be a great product. Excellent post, TAKD, but I'll add that my last China shower brush broke in less than 4 days... Seriously, my last week out of town I bought one at the local wally world and it didn't even complete my trip! Are shower brushes guns? No... Does China generally speaking make crap? Yes... Does Russia produce excellent AKs? NO DOUBT! I'll just wait till I get one in hand or seeing a review before drawing a conclusion... I think the idea of this was to add the features most of you want without having a Vepr12 price tag. Sentence 1, fair enough. I'm glad there are pioneers out there to strike the first footstep on the way to the new land.. At this point, I'm not even close to being one of them. I am happy that MANY of the vendors on here are chomping at the bit to experiment with them. Who knows? They may be a diamond in the rough. Sentence 2, I have no problem with paying for quality and I don't think most of us on here set out to buy junk or "good enough". If the CF-12 (sounds way less lame than it's full name) is a viable gun, then cool. At this point, it looks like a crappier MKA-1919, and I didn't buy one of those either. The current market for the CF-12 is about $20 more than I paid for my S-12. It's got to prove itself. edit: No offense to the MKA guys... It's a sweet piece, but the price for one done to the hilt (aluminum lower) is a bit steep for me compared to the S12! I doubt using Wally World as a poster child for Chinese quality would be fair though. LOL I have a Chinese Baofeng hand ham radio.... for the price paid it's a winner in my and other Hams eyes. I agree about quality and question it coming from China to an extent, I guess I've just had good luck. And as you pointed out about the MKA... everyone was skeptical... but it is growing in popularity. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted April 5, 2013 Report Share Posted April 5, 2013 And as you pointed out about the MKA... everyone was skeptical... but it is growing in popularity. I do agree, but I was hoping for a more original offering, along the lines of a factory bullpup instead of an S12 knockoff. And yes the MKA has lots of good things going for it, and they look pretty damn nice IMO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted April 5, 2013 Report Share Posted April 5, 2013 Well they gave the world the Type 95 too, but sadly I cant have one. Good lord man. That thing's uglier than Keith Richards in drag. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MT Predator 2,294 Posted April 5, 2013 Report Share Posted April 5, 2013 Is that a plastic front sight post? Fuck China! I hate to buy Chinese shit. Especially with what is going on with North Korea. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted April 5, 2013 Report Share Posted April 5, 2013 Well they gave the world the Type 95 too, but sadly I cant have one. Good lord man. That thing's uglier than Keith Richards in drag. I know it. I still want one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted April 5, 2013 Report Share Posted April 5, 2013 (edited) jeez dudes, demilling rivets is pretty dang easy. use a center punch to get a drill going on the rivet, drill out the center, and it will pop right through with a few good whacks and a square punch. the mags to me look nearly identical to S12 mags - the only part that looks a bit different is the front catch region. it may be possible to mod S12 mags. who knows? edit: hey, look closer. look on the right hand side. sort of looks like they're not rivets at all, but axis pins all around. that would mean the stock FCG pops right out with no work. Edited April 5, 2013 by mancat 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
obiwanbonjovi 337 Posted April 5, 2013 Report Share Posted April 5, 2013 Who said the fcg is riveted? It sure looks to me like dome headed axis pins. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted April 5, 2013 Report Share Posted April 5, 2013 a couple posters above. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Agent Lemon 157 Posted April 5, 2013 Report Share Posted April 5, 2013 I don't know or care if it will be quality, but just the fact that they copy everything is offensive. INVENT SOMETHING ORIGINAL YOU FUCKS! Listen, they invented gunpowder. What more do you want? Ha, yeah okay, got me there. I still feel offended that they copy all the cool stuff for some reason. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gregomega 929 Posted April 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2013 Who said the fcg is riveted? It sure looks to me like dome headed axis pins. It was the first thing I said. Guess I was wrong Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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