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VG Tactical 10rd mags

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No longer available through our site.

We only have the CSSPECS 20 gauge mags currently in 10 rd and 5 rd factory OEM.

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trying to search for reviews and find nothing. Im interested but would like to hear some feed back.

 

For those that may or may not remember back about 2 1/2 years ago (yeah I know I have drank since then too!), there was a company on here that was called Dragoon Tactical (my company); we were working on producing S20 10-rounders, but through a series of set backs it did not happen, till. Now through a name change and complete rework, we are done and CSS has them!

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trying to search for reviews and find nothing. Im interested but would like to hear some feed back.

 

For those that may or may not remember back about 2 1/2 years ago (yeah I know I have drank since then too!), there was a company on here that was called Dragoon Tactical (my company); we were working on producing S20 10-rounders, but through a series of set backs it did not happen, till. Now through a name change and complete rework, we are done and CSS has them!

thanks for information.

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trying to search for reviews and find nothing. Im interested but would like to hear some feed back.

 

For those that may or may not remember back about 2 1/2 years ago (yeah I know I have drank since then too!), there was a company on here that was called Dragoon Tactical (my company); we were working on producing S20 10-rounders, but through a series of set backs it did not happen, till. Now through a name change and complete rework, we are done and CSS has them!

 

Holy shit! I remember. Congrats!

 

I remember you taking an ass load of shit from the nay sayers telling you how impossible it would be and how you would fail. I am stoked there is another option out there. I hope they are reliable and durable. The price is right.

 

Can you give details as to what material they are made of, maybe some better photos of the feed lip area, any metal reenforcing, etc.? Thanks.

 

It is super cool to see three members here create S20 mags. Csspecs, Saiga20mags.com, and Dragoon/VG Tactical. Congrats to all!!!

 

Order inbound.

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Good luck with the project and hope you sell a butt load of them.

You thought in the past you had some other project possible, anything else coming down the pike?

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trying to search for reviews and find nothing. Im interested but would like to hear some feed back.

For those that may or may not remember back about 2 1/2 years ago (yeah I know I have drank since then too!), there was a company on here that was called Dragoon Tactical (my company); we were working on producing S20 10-rounders, but through a series of set backs it did not happen, till. Now through a name change and complete rework, we are done and CSS has them!

 

Holy shit! I remember. Congrats!

 

I remember you taking an ass load of shit from the nay sayers telling you how impossible it would be and how you would fail. I am stoked there is another option out there. I hope they are reliable and durable. The price is right.

 

Can you give details as to what material they are made of, maybe some better photos of the feed lip area, any metal reenforcing, etc.? Thanks.

 

It is super cool to see three members here create S20 mags. Csspecs, Saiga20mags.com, and Dragoon/VG Tactical. Congrats to all!!!

 

Order inbound.

There were only a couple a naysayers from what I remember, everyone else was very supportive, which is what I love about the forum. 4th Doctor, we are working on a lot more stuff, I had hoped to get going quicker but life got in the way, as well as a trip to Afghanistan, which is where I am currently.

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I just got 2 of these today. That have a really snug fit with no wobble. When hand cycling the shells get stuck on the shell below it which made think there was a problem but when I loaded it up a shot it they woked perfectly. So far it seems like a good quality product.

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Ordered three VG Tacticsl mags and had a chance to try them today. I did not have good luck. The feed angle is too low for my gun. When loaded with anything over five rounds, they would not feed. When loaded with five rounds and under, the feed angle seems to increase and I didn't run into as many problems. Compared to every other S20 mag I own, these have the least amount of curve, or angle, when inserted in the gun. Still scratching my head...

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Ordered three VG Tacticsl mags and had a chance to try them today. I did not have good luck. The feed angle is too low for my gun. When loaded with anything over five rounds, they would not feed. When loaded with five rounds and under, the feed angle seems to increase and I didn't run into as many problems. Compared to every other S20 mag I own, these have the least amount of curve, or angle, when inserted in the gun. Still scratching my head...

well that will put a hold on me getting any until I here better results. I hope you get that worked out.

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Ordered three VG Tacticsl mags and had a chance to try them today. I did not have good luck. The feed angle is too low for my gun. When loaded with anything over five rounds, they would not feed. When loaded with five rounds and under, the feed angle seems to increase and I didn't run into as many problems. Compared to every other S20 mag I own, these have the least amount of curve, or angle, when inserted in the gun. Still scratching my head...

well that will put a hold on me getting any until I here better results. I hope you get that worked out.

 

Just because they don't work in mine doesn't mean they won't work in yours. It's the way things go with these guns. Lol. Just posting my experience. More feedback from others is needed so we can all learn.

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Ordered three VG Tacticsl mags and had a chance to try them today. I did not have good luck. The feed angle is too low for my gun. When loaded with anything over five rounds, they would not feed. When loaded with five rounds and under, the feed angle seems to increase and I didn't run into as many problems. Compared to every other S20 mag I own, these have the least amount of curve, or angle, when inserted in the gun. Still scratching my head...

 

Sunny, couple of things, as you know due to the very wide tolerances in AK and Saiga platform weapons there is a break in period that we advise. We tested these mags in six different S20s, the only issue we have had is the tightness of the eighth ninth and tenth shell when fully loaded. What we found that works the best is to load the mag on an open bolt and load the mag up with seven shells to start with and fire this way two to three times for a break-in period. Then load the eighth ninth and tenth and cycle until they all feed without issue. We also over-engineered the springs, you may need to snip one coil. Again, you may not have to do this all, but this is what works for those that have.

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Ordered three VG Tacticsl mags and had a chance to try them today. I did not have good luck. The feed angle is too low for my gun. When loaded with anything over five rounds, they would not feed. When loaded with five rounds and under, the feed angle seems to increase and I didn't run into as many problems. Compared to every other S20 mag I own, these have the least amount of curve, or angle, when inserted in the gun. Still scratching my head...

 

Sunny, couple of things, as you know due to the very wide tolerances in AK and Saiga platform weapons there is a break in period that we advise. We tested these mags in six different S20s, the only issue we have had is the tightness of the eighth ninth and tenth shell when fully loaded. What we found that works the best is to load the mag on an open bolt and load the mag up with seven shells to start with and fire this way two to three times for a break-in period. Then load the eighth ninth and tenth and cycle until they all feed without issue. We also over-engineered the springs, you may need to snip one coil. Again, you may not have to do this all, but this is what works for those that have.

 

Thanks for the reply. That is good to know. I will do some more break in and see if things improve. I didn't seem to have issues with the rounds coming up due to tightness. Mainly, it was the angle of the shell as it feeds into the gun. The follower seems to rock forward/backward quite a bit. The first rounds seem to have the correct angle for my gun. As I load more shells, the shell angle decreases. Maybe this will change after the break in process. I hope to find some time this weekend to shoot some more. I'll let you know how it goes.

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sunnybean....did you have any better luck after trying what the manufacturer said to try ?

 

I'm just curious about these mags...and I'd also like to hear reports from anyone else with these too...before I pull the trigger on some of them.

 

I've got the Alliance Arm...23rd drum...3 of the Metal 10rd mags...but I was thinking about getting some more mags and I'm down to either these or the other plastic 13rd version that's been out for awhile now.

 

Any other new ones out or scheduled to come out ??

 

Thanks

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I've shot 100 rounds of slugs, and 500 rounds of the cheap bulk thru mine, mag follower still rocks back n forth and the angle still crams the round into the bottom of the barrel actually causing the round to be crumpled at the end as I try n load it with more than 5 rounds. Input please.

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i went to the range today trying to shot some buck shot and it does not load the gun right. i put the 13 round ones i had and the buckshot shot good so did the other type ammo. im going to say they are junk. 

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i went to the range today trying to shot some buck shot and it does not load the gun right. i put the 13 round ones i had and the buckshot shot good so did the other type ammo. im going to say they are junk. 

........hummm ,  I am not sure they are junk

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Well I’ve never had one to see 1st hand but based on the photo shown at the start of this post and what I’m use to seeing on mags seems like the problem (if there is one) is in the feed lips.

In some other post I thought maybe the angle on the follower was the issue, but now it really looks like the shell is just sitting real low in the mag. On most mags the top rim of the shell usually is a little above the feed lips, (look at a loaded factory mag in the photo below) it’s not in the photo at the start. Just guessing here but the mag more than likely has the feed lips molded as part of the mag body not a steel clip like the factory mag. When the mag is assembled the area is coming out narrower than it should be. Some one who’s got one of these mags that’s not working for them might try to file / widen the space at the back where the feed lips are and see if the top shell rises up and feeds into the chamber better.

Like I said this is just guess work but if you’ve got a mag that doesn’t work might be worth a shot.

post-26137-0-17668400-1397514908.jpg

Edited by the 4th Doctor

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Hi. This is my first post here. I created an account just so I could share my experience with these magazines. I had been looking for an aftermarket magazine for a while when I saw this thread in some Google results. After reading that a couple of people had good results with this mag, I bought one of the VG Tactical 10-round mags from Carolina Shooters Supply in December, 2013. When I first tried it out, I experienced exactly what some others say they experienced - a low feed angle after a certain number of shells (7 in my case) are loaded, causing the first shell to ram into the bottom of the chamber when the bolt is closed.

 

I contacted Carolina Shooters Supply on Jan 30, 2014 and they referred me to Derek at VG Tactical. I explained the problem I was having to Derek, and he said several customers were having this problem, mostly with newer Saiga 20s. (Mine is an EAA import, bought sometime before or in 2005.) He asked me to take the mag apart and ship him the follower, and he would redesign it and ship me a replacement follower that would fix the problem. I shipped him the follower, and he confirmed getting it.

 

A few weeks went buy, and I was sent two brand new mags on April 04, 2014 instead of just a redesigned follower. I loaded one up right away with ten rounds to see if the problem was fixed. When I tried to manually unload it I heard a loud pop inside the magazine. Then the follower began moving freely, allowing the remaining rounds to roll out. I took the floor plate off, and saw that the spring had somehow become super-tangled in the mag body. I was able to carefully pull it out with some force and untangle it. It was bent to heck, so I just used the new follower from that mag with the parts from my original mag. This still gave me two magazines since the second "new" magazine loaded and unloaded just fine.

 

Upon inspection, everything looks exactly the same as the original. I have not been able to take the "new" design shooting yet, but I did load and unload them several times, and they work exactly as the original did. The back of the follower rocks downward and the feed angle goes too low after 6 or 7 rounds are loaded. I have been holding off on contacting Derek at VG Tactical again until I actually go and test the "new" mag design since there might actually be a subtle change in the design that I am missing. However, after noticing that this mag is suddenly no longer for sale by Carolina Shooters Supply, I doubt that the mag design was actually fixed. Once I get a chance to shoot with the "new" design, I'll post here with results.

 

I've posted some pictures below with descriptions and thoughts.

 

This first pic shows two 10-round mags. The one the left with one shell, and the one on the right with 10 shells.

post-49310-0-00897000-1397547543_thumb.jpg

 

The second pic shows a factory 5-round mag with 5 shells loaded on the left, and ten shells loaded into the VG mag on the right. The mags are held level, as they would be in the mag well.

post-49310-0-26199700-1397547549_thumb.jpg

 

Third image shows VG mag with 6 shells on the left, factory 5-round mag with 5 shells on the right. Notice the lower feed angle on the VG with 6 rounds. It goes too low for my Saiga after 7 rounds.

post-49310-0-17971500-1397547554.jpg

 

Fourth image shows that user "the fourth doctor" may be onto something with his theory about feed lips. However, it looks to me like bringing the rear of the shell up a few millimeters would still not do it as the feed angle is so much lower than the factory mag.

post-49310-0-06400100-1397547565_thumb.jpg

 

Fifth image just shows another camera angle of the feed lips and shell rims. (Factory mag on left, VG mag on right.)

post-49310-0-56590300-1397547573_thumb.jpg

 

Sixth image shows the feed lips even clearer, without shells loaded.

post-49310-0-94469000-1397547580_thumb.jpg

 

Last image reveals that the feed angle of the factory follower (right) is actually higher than the VG mag.

post-49310-0-25106500-1397547589_thumb.jpg 

 

My hypothesis:

The feed angle of the VG follower is actually too low. The reason the first couple of shells loaded assume a very high feed angle is because the tilting follower allows the intended feed angle to change. As more rounds are loaded, the follower gradually levels out as the mag is filled. The very high angle of the first two shells works in my gun. The feed angle of the 3rd through 6th shells works great as they roughly match the factory mag feed angle. The 7th+ round gets the follower enough spring tension where it can't tilt anymore, and the true feed angle is revealed. My guess is that if the follower's feed angle were raised, and the follower designed not to tilt, the mag would work with all ten rounds. The follower in the factory mag fits snugly into the mag body and cannot tilt - only move up and down, so the feed angle remains constant. These are my observations. If I've overlooked something or gotten something wrong, (pretty likely) I'd love to hear thoughts.

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I did not just want to make a blanket statement and say they were "junk" .

Truth is : on the World wide Web I can find just about any opinion on any subject or thing that is claimed to be fact - and then I can search some more and find others who swear it the complete opposite .........so I learned to tread softly .

 

As for mags such as the one's were talking about here ; what the heck is the dealy-o ??

 

I mean , how many of these things have we all seen come on to the market only to go by the wayside , labeled as "junk" ?

 

Am I to think the folks that design and engineer this stuff are so stupid they put a defective product on the shelves knowing they don't work ?

 

Are they just interested in a quick profit at the cost of creditability ?

 

Is a ammo magazine so intricate and sophisticated - so complex and complicated that astrophysics and rocket scientists must be brought in to design them ?

 

And how about testing them ....... who exactly see's to it they function well and are durable and dependable ?  Trained monkey's ?  

 

I am going to stick with the $55 dollar Cesspecs - proven reliability and proven functionality  

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Great post Shooter.

I know from testing mags and messing with the Saiga 20s no 2 guns seem to work the same. I had one gun that would run with anything you stuck in it, found out that was the exception not the rule.

With the full knowledge I could be completely wrong I still believe most of the problem is in the feed lips. The follower may be part of the problem but it can be tightened up with some tape or paper for testing. A stiffer spring might change how the follower works too. (also just noticed the top shell nose isn't out much further than the second shell may be a problem in the shell feed track too)

The shells are sitting low in the mag and when the bolt comes forward to strip the shell out of the mag in pushes the nose of the shell down even more. I’d 1st try breaking the sharp edge on the bottom of the molded feed lips to make the rim of the shell both come up some and slide easier when being pushed by the bolt. (can some one post a good photo of the feed lips on a Surefire Saiga 12 mag?)

My understanding is the people who made this mag don’t have in-house production so they are at the mercy of contractors. Making a change to a molding tool can be a very expensive thing to do, so a change to the feed lips could run a pile of money and not fix the problem totally. I’d guess these mags are sonic welded and that too can change how wide the feed lips are apart.

If someone gets a wild hare and wants to send me one of these mags I love to get to test my thoughts on it.

post-26137-0-59240300-1397567841_thumb.jpg

Edited by the 4th Doctor

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Great post Shooter.

I know from testing mags and messing with the Saiga 20s no 2 guns seem to work the same. I had one gun that would run with anything you stuck in it, found out that was the exception not the rule.

With the full knowledge I could be completely wrong I still believe most of the problem is in the feed lips. The follower may be part of the problem but it can be tightened up with some tape or paper for testing. A stiffer spring might change how the follower works too. (also just noticed the top shell nose isn't out much further than the second shell may be a problem in the shell feed track too)

The shells are sitting low in the mag and when the bolt comes forward to strip the shell out of the mag in pushes the nose of the shell down even more. I’d 1st try breaking the sharp edge on the bottom of the molded feed lips to make the rim of the shell both come up some and slide easier when being pushed by the bolt. (can some one post a good photo of the feed lips on a Surefire Saiga 12 mag?)

My understanding is the people who made this mag don’t have in-house production so they are at the mercy of contractors. Making a change to a molding tool can be a very expensive thing to do, so a change to the feed lips could run a pile of money and not fix the problem totally. I’d guess these mags are sonic welded and that too can change how wide the feed lips are apart.

If someone gets a wild hare and wants to send me one of these mags I love to get to test my thoughts on it.

 

Thanks, Doc

 

Since I now have a spare mag body, I feel comfortable experimenting on it. Your idea about the feed lips being the main issue makes a lot of sense and seems like the place to start. I was thinking about using a precision half-round file to go into the sharp edge on the bottom of each feed lip exactly where you pointed and perhaps make them more rounded inward so the shell rims can rise up higher and exit smoother. I just don't know how much material would be safe to remove. Couldn't the feed lips break under pressure if I make them too thin?

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I don’t think it would take much clean up on the feed lips just a little rounding the sharp edge.

One last note of my SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess) on these mags based on photos is about the top shell is not as far forward as you usually see on Saiga mags. There should be a transition area from the feed track of the mag body to the feed lips for the rim of the top shell to make sure it’s clear of the rim of the shell under it. (photo) If the top shells rim is behind the 2nd shells rim when the bolt comes forward to strip it off it will push the nose of the shell down. The photos show the top two shells noses about even on the VG mags that may be a big problem.

It’s great that CSSPECS has a good mag out for the 20 it’s just a shame that a 2nd one kind of hasn’t panned out.

post-26137-0-17356200-1397656528.jpg

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Are you still making the 13 rd mags?

I've had a few people ask about them, they wanted to have a couple of each magazine to fill out their collection.

I had not seen them around in a while. I figured low sales since the Saiga-20 imports slowed to a trickle over the past 5+ years.

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No we're pretty much out of the mag business, still have the tooling but the spring buy quantity is so high that I know we'd never sell enough to pay for them.

Our mag wasn't the one we started to make and like the VG guy we tried to make the best of a bad situation, biggest difference is we have our own tool room and molding equipment. So we got ours to run.

I don't know how many of the VG mags are out there but just seemed like it would be cool to see if there was an easy fix for people to get them to run but the more I look at it without having one in hand it's just me pissing in the wind.

I bought one of your 8 rounders when they came out, played with it, liked it pretty damn well, and kind of took that as the beginning of the end of our mag.

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Doctor -

"It’s great that CSSPECS has a good mag out for the 20 it’s just a shame that a 2nd one kind of hasn’t panned out. "

 

I agree , variety is the spice of life and competition is good for us all .

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