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Mods to CA legal Saiga 223


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Another Newb here. I wasn't looking for a Saiga originally but buying one made a lot of sense. I was originally looking for a semi-auto home defense shotgun for "just in case" home situations. However the Saiga was about half the price.

I live just outside of Los Angeles and that had a profound effect on my choice. The Republicans got their butts kicked in the November 2012 Elections and there's a supermajority of Democrats in our State Legislature. I thought that it was a good time to get my first "black gun" before possibly having the choice taken from me. A local gun shop was selling Saiga .223's with the 16 inch barrel for $439 (US). One thing I'd always respected about Kalashnikov designs was their absolute reliability and ease of maintenance. Just what I want when my home security might be going to Hell on a rocket sled. I'm also happy with the way she handles and mounts to my shoulder.

I read the certifications that came in the box and found that my Saiga shot a 137mm group at 100 meters before being passed on for shipment. 5 moa is not exactly a confidence builder. I understand that for my initial use, the ranges are not that long, but in a suburban home defense situation, with my house having walls about as strong as a wet paper bag, a miss could be as dangerous for the innocent as a hit would be for an assailant. For now, I'll experiment to see what ammo she likes best. Improved accuracy is definitely an important issue. If I can get groups half that size, I'll be happy.

I'm not afraid to modify a firearm but being a Law Abiding Citizen in California limits my choices. I'd like to improve the trigger/FCG, but being limited to 10 round magazines, I'd rather go with a non-fixed magazine than a pistol grip. I'm following information I've found on this forum and elsewhere to improve the factory trigger group since conversion is out for me.

I'd also like to fire lap the barrel using David Tubb's Final Finish bullets. It has worked well for my Marlin 45-70 but I am not sure how it might work on chrome lined barrels. I'm going to call the company tomorrow to find out but if anyone has tried it, I would sure like to hear about it.

There's more options for me with the forend, according to California Law, as long as I don't mount a projecting hand grip. I'm looking for something that will mount lights or lasers, maintain ergonomics and if possible, improve cooling. I like the Galil style forends but don't think there's room for both my hand and necessary lights/lasers. I also like TSS's AR style forend but am open to recommendations from you experienced people.

Lastly, and lowest in priority, how easy is it to change barrels and calibers on Saigas? Eventually, I'll get the shotgun and then I won't have to have my Saiga be a one trick pony. I'd like a thicker, 20 inch barrel for greater efficiency and accuracy. I also want to explore converting to a round that will still fit the Saiga's magazine, action and bolt face. I've heard good things about the 6.8 SPC, but would look at the 6.5 Grendel or 6x45mm. Don't know if the 450 Bushmaster would work but if it did, I could at least share bullets with my 1911. I have an 18 inch 30 cal barrel blank with a 1 in 10 inch twist. If the new barrel was thicker, would I need a new gas block? How tolerant of different gas pressures is the Saiga's gas system? Could you modify a gas block from a .308 Saiga for the Remington 30 AR? I'd need to find a good gunsmith who deals with Saigass. Can anyone recommend any in California?

Lastly, where can I find an exploded parts diagram for my particular gun?

Sorry to lay all this on you all. I joined this forum a few months ago and have been looking around first to avoid asking questions that I could answer myself. There's so much information here and so little time! The only thing i hate worse than dumbass questions is asking them. I appreciate your patience. I really enjoy my Saiga and this community of people who shoot them. Thanks for any guidance you all can give.

Edited by TackyDriver
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The factory proof group really doesn't mean anything. It's simply a function check. There are plenty of users on this forum who have reported tight groups that had no relation to the factory proof target spread.

 

Changing the barrel/caliber on an AK is prohibitively expensive unless you already have the tools, knowledge, and parts. You would have to change the complete barrel assembly and bolt, and replace them with complete barrel assembly and bolt that follows AK-74/AK-100 series specifications. This is because not all AK barrels have the same dimensions where the barrel presses into the front trunnion, so for example you cannot simply buy a 7.62x39 AKM barrel and press it into a Saiga .223 without serious machining work.

 

Just take that idea, and get it out of your mind. If you want a different caliber, buy a different rifle. AKs aren't modular like ARs are in this respect.

 

IMO there is really no point to breaking in a chrome-lined, hammer-forged barrel. Most hammer-forged barrels are not as "tight" as precision-cut barrels, and don't need this sort of procedure before seeing serious use. If you want, just be nice to it for the first couple hundred rounds. No excessive heat, and keep it clean. Then, go all out. Keep in mind that the barrel in your Saiga is factory-rated to sustain a minimum of 20,000 rounds in fully-automatic fire before it begins to see any serious loss of accuracy, and even then it will still be very much functional as a rifle. It's a military barrel, not a stainless steel target barrel.

 

Izhmash has presented 6.5 Grendel AK last year, though no mention if they'll actually get it to the US market any time soon.

 

As far as gas pressures go, most AKs tend towards being overgassed. In the absence of an adjustable gas port, you "adjust" the AK's gas system by adjusting the recoil spring tension. Rarely is this ever done, but you can effectively drop the gas pressure by swapping in a stiffer spring. I did this with my .223 because I felt the rifle was over-gassed when firing 5.56 NATO, and a stiffer spring from Wolff springs really tamed its behavior IMO.

Edited by mancat
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Thanks, mancat for the word. I've been going slow because I was waiting for the fire lapping ammo to arrive. Maybe I'll cancel the order since they say they've been held up by shortages.

 

I'll be playing with groups using different ammunition this evening. I'm installing a XS Tritium Big Dot front sight fight now. So I'll be sighting her in anyway.

 

As far as changing barrels, if I ever do, what about swapping in a Saiga 20" .223 barrel?

 

Thanks for saving me a lot of blood, sweat and tears. My Saiga ain't broke so maybe I should just enjoy her as is.

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As far as changing barrels, if I ever do, what about swapping in a Saiga 20" .223 barrel?

 

Thanks for saving me a lot of blood, sweat and tears. My Saiga ain't broke so maybe I should just enjoy her as is.

 

Let me attempt to save you even more "blood, sweat and tears".

Get 20" Vepr in addition to your Saiga then.

Before making ANY changes, carefully study what is prohibited in your State, to avoid getting into big troubles.

And like with most CA properties, where back yard is usually smaller than my patio, 1911 might be your safest defense weapon, to avoid massive collateral neighborhood casualties.

 

Sorry about the deteriorating political climate in un-American Commiefornia.

I can say it: I lived there for way too long (Riverside & Ventura Counties) before moving the hell out.

 

Welcome aboard and good luck!

Edited by Sgt. Raven
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Yes, buy a 20" Saiga or Vepr. The Vepr, especially, will have a heavier barrel that will whip less.

 

The 20" Saigas had two barrel dimensions. One was a thicker than standard barrel, the other had standard dimensions. Neither one is as thick as the 20" Vepr barrel.

 

P.S. the best deals on these rifles tends to be around September/October. This is when the large shipments tend to come in from Russia, and the market gets flooded with rifles around this time. Still, if you found your .223 in the $450 range, that's a decent price considering that it's California, as well as the current political climate surrounding this type of rifle.

Edited by mancat
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Oh great, now you've done it, gentleman. Now I want to get the Vepr and I'm going to blame you grimace.gif . I'll be looking forward to this coming Fall.

The main reason I was contemplating a barrel/caliber change was in case no more such carbines will be allowed in CA in the future. I'm joining Calguns and CARPA to try to help prevent that. Not goin' down w/out a fight. I agree w/ your assessment of the 1911. I believe in Murphy's Law: if I have the carbine I won't need it. I worry that the next major earthquake to hit California will happen because I didn't rotate/update my earthquake supplies.

 

One last question: How hard can I hit that @%#&$* windage drum without breaking the front sight block? I do believe that you drive it out from left to right. Oh and sorry about the exploded diagram question. I didn't completely RTFI in the Saiga manual. Sometimes the best place to hide something from me is to put it in front of me!

 

Take care

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One last question: How hard can I hit that @%#&$* windage drum without breaking the front sight block? I do believe that you drive it out from left to right.

 

Unless I misunderstood your question (and it happens to me more often than I wish!), you would be better off driving it out with sight adjustment tool, like this:

 

p_100006572_1.jpg

 

Direction of the drive doesn't matter (R-L or L-R).

You could find them everywhere: Amazon, Brownell's, Krebs, you name it, as cheap as $9.

 

I like your attitude on standing tall for your rights!

Stick around; we need more people like you.

Hopefully, someday line of tornados will selectively descend onto the "Golden State" and surgically and precisely wipe out all commies and their "5th column".

 

Happy Shooting!

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Sorry Sgt. Raven, I wasn't very clear. I need to drive the old windage drum out to replace it with one that's threaded for a XS Systems tritium Big Dot. Their front sight post uses different threads so I need to change windage drums. I have a sight tool like the one you pictured. It's sold by UTG and is supposed to be reinforced. I'm worried that I might still break it since I have the manual dexterity of a crow bar. I just wanted to tap it loose and then finish with the sight tool but it won't budge. Man, these Saigas are built tough. I've used enough Break Free to float Kim Kardashian's behind. Should I try using a heat gun? Any advice is appreciated.

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I figure our rights won't take care of themselves and one shouldn't complain about a problem if one is unwilling to help fix it. As far as surgical tornadoes go, we should be so lucky. Besides, they'll just be regarded as victims and there never seems to be a lack of replacements. I'm afraid the commies are beyond help. I'm concerned for those who believe them. Thanks for the encouragement, it really helps even more than the technical advice.

Good shooting to you too.

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I'd still suggest the sight tool.

I need to see who is a maker of mine (might be the same), but I used it once and it worked well enough to adjust (and survive).

I'll send it over on a free loan, if you wish; just send it back when done.

Cost wise, it might not worth it.

 

I have seen "indigenous" locals tapping their AK sight drums with hammers, I swear. I think it was the same place, when they used sheep fat for rust prevention and "boutique" gun appearance.

 

Logically, if you place your rifle's FSB onto the wooden block, having drum aligned with hole or cavity underneath, you should be able to tap it out.

(Above mentioned "indigenous" folks used their folded padded robe over the rock, as I recall).

I guess, I'm spoiled ...

 

Roll call on CalGuns if there is anyone nearby with heavier-duty tool, or PM me and I'll mail it to you.

Even if it's the same thing...

And if you break it, oh well. No big deal

I'll get a rock, rusted hummer and padded robe, and will be OK.

 

P.S. One of those guys:

 

ak47_4a.jpg

Edited by Sgt. Raven
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Got her done yesterday. I do have a sight tool like yours. I took your advice and used a bench block for my 1911 to support the muzzle end. After some more tapping I tried the sighting tool. After tightening it up and then a couple of more turns I took a break because I wasn't getting anywhere. Left the tool on. I returned after about 30 minutes and tried a couple of more turns. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition! The windage drum gave and I was able to remove it with the sighting tool. Maybe the constant pressure for 30 minutes did the job or the thing just got sick of me. Apparently, Patience IS a virtue.

 

Have a good weekend.

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