S12 Bolt Damage? (Pics)

[SGL 530]

Back before the panic I purchased an SGL12 from KVAR after wanting an S12 for a long time.

The gun runs great with most loads and has approximately 700 rounds of everything from bird & buck to slugs and I am very happy with it.

 

The only issue I noticed when it was new was that the bolt did not ride smoothly all the way forward. It wasn't getting hung up on the hammer as is so common with AKs, but rather running into resistance in the last quarter inch where it goes into battery. If you pull the charging handle all of the way back and let it go, it runs home with no problem...ditto while firing. It's only if you ease it forward that it hangs up a little, and not having experience with other S12s, I wasn't sure if this was normal. One other thing that I've noticed is that it can be difficult to run the bolt back manually in the case of a failure to extract on super light loads. This doesn't happen often any more, but when I was breaking it in, I had to really yank the charging handle hard to the rear to extract the fired shell.

 

Keep in mind that I've been shooting AKMs for years and years, so that may also skew my perceptions of what is normal. It seems to make sense that these guns take a little more manhandling due to the beefed up parts.

 

After the first time shooting it, I was shocked to find a little chip in the bolt face while cleaning. I of course immediately freaked out and started searching here. I was relieved when I came across this old thread...

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/75409-s12-bolt-damaged/

 

In it, a user posted a pic that had similar "damage" to my bolt, and SunnyBean who seems to have a lot of posts said... "Looks like all of mine."

 

So instead of worrying about it, I just continued taking the gun out whenever I got the chance and have been loving it. I joined the forum a couple of days ago to spread the word about some mags I found (see that thread for Russian 8 Round Magazines...but be sure to follow the thread for the link to Legion if you're interested).

 

Since this community has been so helpful both for my post, and in the countless other threads I've read here, I figured I'd have you take a look at it.

 

I'm hoping it's fine after reading the old post, but this combined with the slight hang up going in to battery make it seem worthwhile to at least get some opinions here.

 

The gun is still under warranty from FIME so if something is actually wrong, I would like to get it fixed before it goes out of warranty. On the other hand, if this is totally normal, I'd much rather not have to send it in.

 

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

P.S. Of course I've been lurking here long enough to know that the gun is now totally broken and worthless and several of you would be kind enough will take it off my hands for $50.00.

Edited April 13, 2013 by SGL

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I wouldn't really call it "normal" in the sense that it's supposed to do that. However, it is more common than one would like to believe. Just another example of the loose tolerances of the Saiga 12, and inconsistency in their MFG. I have seen hundreds of em come through my shop for re-profiling and polishing, and many have been like yours. Some not as bad, some maybe a tad worse. What causes that is the bolt head / face slamming into the left side of the trunnion. If you look there where it's been hitting, you will see exactly where the contact is. If it was mine I would de-bur and polish both parts, and keep on rollin with it. It has already worn itself in there so it will most likely be fine. It's hard for me to say for sure without actually feeling it.

[SGL 530]

That does seem to make sense. One the one hand, having the bolt polished by a company such as yours has always sounded tempting. On the other, if FIME sold me a gun that is damaging itself beyond what would be considered acceptable, it seems like they should make it right.

 

Like you said, it can be tough to tell without actually handling the bolt, but is it your opinion based on what you have seen that you would be able to resolve it during the course of your regular bolt service? Do you think it's more likely a function of the shape/size of the bolt, or something out of spec in the receiver?

 

If it were something that could be easily fixed in your shop just by sending in the bolt, I would probably rather have that done and get an improved gun out of the deal than dealing with the hassle of sending the whole thing into FIME. I don't have any experience polishing, so I'm very wary of doing something like that myself, screwing something up, and voiding the warranty. I would also hate to have the bolt go out to you, come back nice and smooth, and then start beating itself up again.

 

I definitely appreciate your advice, and that of anyone else that wants to chime in.

 

Thanks again.

Edited April 13, 2013 by SGL

[dubya 198]

My S12 and S410 bolts are fine, no chips but my S7.62x39 bolt has a small chip. I haven't noticed any problems or differences.

That last 1/4" or so you're saying the BCG doesn't want to go fully forward is completely normal. I'm sure you've noticed the S12 bolt is a 2 piece design as opposed to the rifle bolt which is 1 piece and that last 1/4" is where the bolt turns and locks. I put a teeny teeny dab of white lithium grease on the bolt lugs just to smooth things out a bit.

[Paulyski 2,227]

Got your PM asking to check out the thread.
That dent on the bolt's normal, or at least it happens on many which run verry good. Half the pieces in my shop have it.
Without looking at the gun I'd GUESS your chamber might be just a cunthair small.
This is just a guess from you saying you have to slam the hell out of the charger to get it to extract.

One comp shooter a while back that I deal with had a similar issue.
His firearm would cycle some ammos like Remmy high-brass great, but he thought it was locking up with Estate low brass (steel). Go figure... That was the shit he decided to buy 3,000 rounds of... lol.
He was kicking the darn thing to get the shell out before he came my way. On a side note, I've gotten a bit of charging handle business from people who thought a hammer against the charger would help them get it "unlocked" so I'd personally advise against it... Nah, on second thought, use a 12 lb sledge... I need the money.

Turned out his chamber was just slightly undersized. That's going to require a smith pulling the barrel and boring the chamber just a tiny bit if you don't want it to be a dremelled hackjob.
To check, next time you're out shooting, take a very small flat head screw driver with you.
If it locks up like you described, lift the extractor off the rim of the shell and see if when the extractor is lifted, you can easily pull the charger back.
If you can, but you have to use a ram-rod to get the spent shell out of there after removing your bolt & carrier, then that's your issue.
An undersized chamber is VERY rare, so I'd advise strongly against everyone reading this to just run down that route. But it does happen, so it's part of my personal troubleshooting checklist.

 

Also, if you messed with the embutment in the carrier that the bolts' 3rd lug rides in, and your bolt & carrier have been eating eachother up on the 1st angle the lug transitions on during it's rotation into locking up, that'd do it too, but it'd likely be a consistent failure. (or it will be consistent in the not too distant future as the center lug eats up the carrier embutment further)
Good luck.

Peace and grace.

Paul M. Pawlowski

[Paulyski 2,227]

lol.
Re-read the O.P. and saw you said it was getting better.
I'll leave the troubleshooting info for the next guy just in case there's someone with a mysterious extraction issue that's killing them..
Bolt face's fine.
I wouldn't worry about it.
The hang up you experience while chambering is the overpowered extractor spring climbing its ramp by the chamber. Some are very strong, some are very weak. The springs are consistant, but depths of indentation in the bolt's head, and the extractor hole differ, so the spring can be tougn if both holes are on the shallow side. Tuning the extractor like I do to the units in GlassBolt would reduce that, but it's really a non-issue for the most part. It happens on the S-12 because the extractor has to get out of the way by riding up the ramp. It's a rimmed shell thing.
You don't notice it on the AKM, because the rifle extractors don't have to be worked so hard, and just clip over the casing as they chamber. No ramp for them to ride up.

[SGL 530]

You guys are awesome...really. Thanks to everyone who took the time to post here and PM me.

I might have made a bigger deal out of the extraction issue than it actually is. I've never had to resort to anything but the standard reach under the weapon and charge it the same as an AK. It just takes more force than I was expecting in those FTE situations...which are not common. It's never been close to needing a boot or hammer.

 

I'm definitely feeling better about the bolt face. Right now, I'm thinking I'll probably just shoot the shit out of it as it is while it's under warranty. If it starts giving me real problems, I'll send it in to FIME. Once the warranty expires, I don't think I'll be able to resist sending the bolt in to Pauly or Cobra for refinement. Someone also PM'd me and suggested polishing the groove in the receiver that accepts the extractor.

 

Anyway, I know I'm new here, so I'm really impressed at the way that you guys jumped on board to help.

Thanks again!