ace folder w/ pistol grip

[devin_c1 2]

has any one tried the bolt on ace folder and pistol grip . ive seen them for sale on ace and blackjack buffer it says no conversion needed. it seems like a sweet way to go with out altering your gun so u can go back to long stock for hunting ?? was just wondering if any one has used one. thanks devin

[KySoldier 2]

Since its made by ACE I'm sure its of high quality and will last the life of the gun....the only thing that concerns me is the US parts count.

 

Regulation 27 CFR 178.39(a)

[Bvamp 604]

does that "readily adaptable to sporting purposes" part mean that I cant have it folded up under the seat of my truck and take it out to shoot a deer if I run up into the woods 250 feet ahead of the thing?

 

sorry. heheh

[jcbrown 0]

has any one tried the bolt on ace folder and pistol grip . ive seen them for sale on ace and blackjack buffer it says no conversion needed. it seems like a sweet way to go with out altering your gun so u can go back to long stock for hunting ?? was just wondering if any one has used one. thanks devin

 

If you have a plain barrel, you need 5 US parts. If you have a threaded barrel, you need 6 US parts.

 

I put an ACE folder on my Saiga with a threaded barrel. Here are my US parts:

 

1) ACE Buttstock

2) US Ergo pistol grip

3,4,5) Tapco G2 Hammer/Trigger/disconnector

6) johnnymercado flash hider

7) Tapco Galil handguards

[kmoore 3]

has any one tried the bolt on ace folder and pistol grip . ive seen them for sale on ace and blackjack buffer it says no conversion needed. it seems like a sweet way to go with out altering your gun so u can go back to long stock for hunting ?? was just wondering if any one has used one. thanks devin

 

If you have a plain barrel, you need 5 US parts. If you have a threaded barrel, you need 6 US parts.

 

I put an ACE folder on my Saiga with a threaded barrel. Here are my US parts:

 

1) ACE Buttstock

2) US Ergo pistol grip

3,4,5) Tapco G2 Hammer/Trigger/disconnector

6) johnnymercado flash hider

7) Tapco Galil handguards

 

Question feels like a blast from the past. There was a letter from the atf posted some time back. Lots of posts regarding post counts a while back. Boils down to this. The ATF concluded there were 14 parts in a Sporter versions.

 

This always confuses people. Start with the 14 parts that the Saiga is deemed to have. You can only have 10 foriegn parts if you want a "nonsporting" configuration. So replace minimum of 4 with domestic parts. If you add one, there's another mandated replacement. Typical things to add are a PG and possible a muzzle device. I think this is only a flash suppressor, not a choke tube or muzzle break, but I'm not sure as it is not interesting to me. I'm not planning to add a foreign MD on mine.

 

Typically, folks replace the FCG, the stock and add a US PG and call it done.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

has any one tried the bolt on ace folder and pistol grip . ive seen them for sale on ace and blackjack buffer it says no conversion needed. it seems like a sweet way to go with out altering your gun so u can go back to long stock for hunting ?? was just wondering if any one has used one. thanks devin

 

If you have a plain barrel, you need 5 US parts. If you have a threaded barrel, you need 6 US parts.

 

I put an ACE folder on my Saiga with a threaded barrel. Here are my US parts:

 

1) ACE Buttstock

2) US Ergo pistol grip

3,4,5) Tapco G2 Hammer/Trigger/disconnector

6) johnnymercado flash hider

7) Tapco Galil handguards

 

+1 on what kmoore said.

 

I think you may have the shotguns and the rifles confused.

 

An AK type rifle has more foreign parts on the evil list.

[devin_c1 2]

thanks every one for your in put i did plan to check part count youve just made that easier for me thanks. i was mostly wondering if any one has gone this route verses a ful blown conversion. it would make it easier to change back to stock if the folder is not as comfy to shoot say for skeet or a random buck lol. i have a very long wing span and all guns so far feel short. with a but pad siaga stock stock is not terrible. iguess i just want my cake and eat it to. if i go with the no mod stock what would be the easiest, cheapest parts to use for complience. i want a folder dam it thanks devin

[kmoore 3]

thanks every one for your in put i did plan to check part count youve just made that easier for me thanks. i was mostly wondering if any one has gone this route verses a ful blown conversion. it would make it easier to change back to stock if the folder is not as comfy to shoot say for skeet or a random buck lol. i have a very long wing span and all guns so far feel short. with a but pad siaga stock stock is not terrible. iguess i just want my cake and eat it to. if i go with the no mod stock what would be the easiest, cheapest parts to use for complience. i want a folder dam it thanks devin

 

You probably know, folder = nonsporting ... = 10 foriegn parts max. (As I understand it, Folder/collapsable, PG and > 5round mag all => nonsporting).

 

There used to be a lot of pics of folks conversions. Seems like some of the Ace options added an addapter block (= greater LOP). I'd think you'd want the real PG anyways, as that would effectively increase the LOP too.

 

Maybe go back and search under conversion pics ? I have the Tapco T6 which collapses. I like it best at one notch shorter than max, so it might be long enough for you? Otherwise, you might just get what looks best and add recoil pads to make up length?

 

The are lots of options. Not quite the "lego" gun that the AR is or even AK rifles, but still lots of ways to "getterdone".

[embalmed 0]

would it be absurd or offensive for me to suggest/offer/propose the idea of making a chart or some kind of grid listing the parts, and then us made replacements. The whole concept is pretty tasking from my angle "don't own one yet, and don't want to put my butt in the sling from my own ignorance".

[kmoore 3]

Well, I don't know about a chart ... but

 

Wow, while typing below, I realized that I thought the letter was for a sporterized Saiga12, but it does count the Pistol Grip as one of the 14 parts! I'm guessing that I've put out some bad info above and probably in previous posts.

 

To be clear, the Sporterized version we get from Russia has 13 parts.

 

Parts that change easily, with current options available. (numbering from the atf letter on soupbowl)

 

9. Gas Piston - Room for confusion here. AK rifles have a one piece piston/rod. Saiga's are 2 piece. Doubt that anyone has gotten clarification on which needs changing. Tony Rumore makes the piston, There's another individual that makes the rods (and calls them pistons) on another board. This is not a popular option to convert to domestic.

 

11, 12, 14. Trigger, Hammer, Disconectors. Most popular thing to do. There are several manufactures.

 

15. Buttstocks - Most options here. Much discussion on these scattered thru the forum.

 

16. Pistol Grips - Again, lots of options. Most seem to go with a US made replica (cheap and keeps the look) or a larger grip (e.g. SAW grip for ergonomics).

 

 

Ones that will be soon.

17. Handguards - these aren't mass produced, currently. I'd guess the custom wood guards that used to be made by a member here would count, as well as any railed solution where the handguard is removed. (these will be available soon)

 

18,19,20. Magazine parts. Don't recommend using this for compliance as you'd never be able to use 100% factory mags. It's possible that Z1500's floorplates fit the factory mags, and you could buy a bunch (cheap compliance part)

 

 

Ones that DON'T change out easily.

1.Reciever/frames

2. BBL

6. Bolts

7. Bolt carriers

 

 

Parts that aren't found on the Saiga12-C

3. BBL extension

4.Mounting Blocks/trunnions

5.Muzzle Attachments

8.Operating Rods

10. Trigger Housing

13. Sears

 

If you should add a foreign muzzle attachment you'll increase your foriegn parts count.

 

Above is how I understand things. Board members smarter that me (no jokes here): Please don't hesitate to correct any of my mistakes.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Good job kmoore. I'm not claiming to be smarter or anything but want to clear up a couple of things.

 

PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE READING LONG POSTS AND ALREADY KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT THE 922r COMPLIANCE RULES PLEASE JUST MOVE ALONG. THIS IS FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT READ OR STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO TO CONVERT YOUR SAIGA, IN ANY WAY, TO PG CONFIGURATION.

 

"9. Gas Piston - Room for confusion here. AK rifles have a one piece piston/rod. Saiga's are 2 piece. Doubt that anyone has gotten clarification on which needs changing. Tony Rumore makes the piston, There's another individual that makes the rods (and calls them pistons) on another board. This is not a popular option to convert to domestic."

On the gas piston confusion, it's only the Saiga shotguns that employ the extra gas piston, also called a tappet by some. This floating piston within the gas block is referred to as the "piston" in the parts breakdown charts put out by Izhmash so it should be replaced just to be on the safe side if you need an extra part for compliance. This by far the easiest part to replace if you buy one from Tromix. Simply unscrew the gas adjustment "blind plug", pop the old one out and a new one in. Since the parts breakdown on the shotguns does not name the questionable part otherwise known as the gas piston on AKs, lets just call that a bolt carrier "extension".

 

The Saiga rifles are set up exactly like the AKs with just one conventional gas piston threaded into the bolt carrier(or bolt support as it's called at Izhmash). It is also very easy to replace the bolt carrier extension if you want to really eliminate confusion on the shotguns or help bring your rifle into compliance with foreign furniture. I've done this several times and it is as easy as drilling two holes where the "dimples" are, unscrewing the old one and screwing in a new one with threadlocker. Then you don't even have to drill and pin it, just take a punch and repunch the area where you drilled out the dimples and it will stay in there. (Anyone with a question about this feel free to email me.) On the Saiga rifles this to me is a questionable compliance part because it is not named in the parts breakdowns in the Izhmash catalog. But it is named on the Soupbowl list from ATF and known as a gas piston by all other AK builders so it should be a compliance part. You can obtain one of these custom made USA stamped Stainless steel pistons from a guy named hotbarrel. Follow this link. http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.p...rrel+gas+piston

 

You are correct, the "sporterized" version of the Saiga shotguns, which we have in the US have 13 "evil" parts as they are when imported. There is no PG. If you want to add a PG it counts as a 14th "evil" part. You can have no more than 10 foreign parts from the ATF list on your PG converted shotgun. I spoke with the guy down at ACE about the compliance issues when using their stock with integral PG. You do indeed need to change out the parts in your gun so that it has no more than 10 foreign parts total that are on the list if you want to use this part. The fact that it is a folding stock has no bearing because the Assault Weapons Ban has sunsetted and it is no longer an issue. Another option will soon be available for people who want to put on a PG but want to keep the option to be able to switch back to the imported configuration. Follow this link for info on that.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=8517

 

If you have a shotgun with a threaded muzzle and want to use the factory muzzle devices you need to replace one additonal part. (5 total on the shotguns) It is kind of a grey area whether the factory choke tubes are considered "muzzle attachments" like the flash hiders and brakes are so you should replace one additional part to be on the safe side. If you have your cut back or unthreaded barrel threaded for US made chokes that cancels itself out so no worries.

 

These questions about compliance always come up again and again... on all AK related gun forums. The members who have seen it again and again until it's imprinted on the backs of their skulls often pitch in and try to help as I'm doing now. It always takes a bunch of explaining, and comes out sounding a little different each time, but saying the same thing.

 

THIS IS EXACTLY WHY WE HAVE A FAQ SECTION HERE, LIKE ON MOST OTHER BOARDS, THAT EXPLAINS THIS SITUATION TO THE NTH DEGREE AND COVERS ALL THIS STUFF. ACTUALLY WE HAVE MORE THAN JUST ONE. THERE ARE AT LEAST THREE EXPLANATIONS OF THESE RULES DOCUMENTED HERE THAT COVER EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW VERY WELL. MANY PEOPLE HAVE WORKED VERY HARD ON THESE, MYSELF INCLUDED, SO THAT THE NEW PEOPLE CAN JUST GO THERE AND READ THE INFORMATION THAT TOOK US MUCH RESEARCH AND MANY THREADS LIKE THIS ONE TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF IT ALL.

 

PLEASE READ THE FAQ SECTION IN IT'S ENTIRITY BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO DO A PG CONVERSION!

 

IT'S THERE FOR A REASON. EVRYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW IS THERE. NOT JUST PARTS COUNT BUT IMPORTANT DETAILS ABOUT THE CONVERSION ITSELF THAT WILL SAVE YOU MANY QUESTIONS.

 

 

 

Just asking a few questions and expecting to understand it all from answers recieved by different individuals is not going to make you understand the whole picture. PLEASE take a few minutes to read thru and fully understand the rules.

 

This is not an attempt to jump on people for asking questions so don't take it that way. This is just another attempt to make people understand the importance of reading the available information. After doing that if you still have a question or are unsure about something plese feel free to ask. All I'm asking is that you read EVERYTHING and try to understand it first.

 

The installation of a stock with integral PG, like the new Ace with adapter block, the thumbhole and Dragunov style stocks, and others to come, is a little different than doing the conventional PG conversion so these are good questions. I will probably sticky this thread for that reason as well as to try and persuade future members and guests (who by the way cannot post questions) to read the available information before asking all the same old questions over and over.

 

Here is a link to what you need to read: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...t=0entry16009

 

Thanks USMC LB for providing this FAQ

 

This is part of what is there:

 

PLEASE READ EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU DRILL & CUT YOUR SAIGA ! ! !

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

If you have something to add please send me a Personal Message (PM)

or email me at USMC_LB@hotmail.com and I will update this page.

 

IF YOU SEE SOMETHING THAT IS INCORRECT OR COULD BE

WORDED DIFFERENTLY PLEASE CONTACT ME wink.gif

 

SAIGA-12.com PISTOL GRIP CONVERSION STEPS & TIPS

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

This is a guide to help those who want to convert their Saiga shotguns to

the pistol grip version.

 

********USE AT YOUR OWN RISK*******

 

This is not solely my own words, it is a compilation of many of the steps that the members of Saiga-12.com shared with everyone after

they converted their own shotguns.

 

Hopefully, the consolidation of all this helpful information into one location will be useful for others wanting to do the same.

 

Thank the many members who treaded where no one had before and cleared the way for the rest so that this conversion

could be completed with minimum cursing.... =)

 

hartzpad, inparidel, Salmonaxe, Siagalova, JBONE, Tomac, Cobra 76 two, AND many others !

 

This will remain a living document that will update whenever someone offers any new or innovative proceedure or item.

 

IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO ADD PLEASE DO NOT REPLY IN THIS THREAD

 

Just email me at USMC_LB@hotmail.com

 

This is strictly a TECHNICAL document and will not delve deeply into the rules & regulations pertaining to the Saiga shotgun & 922r

except to let people know the proper parts counts and the correct number of US parts to be compliant with the law.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Your Saiga shotgun has a parts count of 13. This means you need to replace 3 parts to be compliant with 922r.

 

1) Trigger

2) Disconnect

3) Hammer

 

If your Saiga shotgun has a removable choke then your parts count is 14 and you will need to replace 4 parts to be compliant.

 

1) Trigger

2) Disconnect

3) Hammer

4) Buttstock

 

The last addition to your parts count is your pistol grip.

 

If you DO NOT have a removable choke then you can use either a imported Pistol Grip or a imported Buttstock. One has to be

US made and the other can be imported.

 

If you DO have a removable choke then you have to use both, a US made Pistol Grip and a US made Buttstock.

 

*** In either case, IF you have your Saiga barrel re-threaded to use common

US made shotgun chokes then you CAN USE either a imported

buttstock or a imported pistol grip, but not both.

 

Here is a complete parts count for a Saiga shotgunwith a removable choke and a pistol grip:

 

(1) Receiver---------------------------------------------------------------------Russian

(2) Barrels-----------------------------------------------------------------------Russian

(3) Barrel extensions ---------------------------------DOES NOT EXIST ON SAIGA

(4) Mounting blocks,trunion -------------------------DOES NOT EXIST ON SAIGA

(5) Muzzle attachments-------------------------------------------------------Russian

(6) Bolts-------------------------------------------------------------------------Russian

(7) Bolt carriers-----------------------------------------------------------------Russian

(8) Operating rods -----------------------------------DOES NOT EXIST ON SAIGA

(9) Gas pistons----------------------------------------------------------------Russian

(10) Trigger housings -------------------------------DOES NOT EXIST ON SAIGA

(11) Triggers================================ US COMPLIANT

(12) Hammers=============================== US COMPLIANT

(13) Sears ---------------------------------------------DOES NOT EXIST ON SAIGA

(14) Disconnectors============================ US COMPLIANT

(15) Buttstock=============================== US COMPLIANT

(16) Pistol grips============================== US COMPLIANT

(17) Forearms, handguards--------------------------------------------------Russian

(18) Magazine bodies---------------------------------------------------------Russian

(19) Followers------------------------------------------------------------------Russian

(20) Floorplates ---------------------------------------------------------------Russian

 

*** It is possible now to install US COMPLIANT handguards that are

made for AK rifles. Take a look at Cobra 76 2's FAQ regarding this proceedure.

 

 

Below is a online Saiga guide that alot of us used to do our conversions but, keep in mind, the above guide is for Saiga rifles

and there are a handful of things that you DO NOT have to do on the shotgun that you have to do for the rifle.

I suggest you use the his website in conjunction with this guide:

 

http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/index.htm

 

Keep in mind, the above guide is foir Saiga rifles.

 

Our guide will let you know which steps mentioned in the rifle conversion need to be skipped in the shotgun conversion

 

============END OF SECTION ONE===========