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Disappointed with 5.45 x 39 energy transfer


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Took my 5.45 build to the range yesterday and was a bit put off. I fired several rounds at an old silicone caulking tube that I was never going to use because part of it had gelled up. The darn rounds went straight through. Tiny entry, tiny exit. The tube wouldn't even rock slightly since the rounds were going in and out like needles. I finally pulled my ruger 9 and fired a shot with my defensive ammo and watched the tube explode. I know, apples to oranges as far as the ammo goes, but I figured at least some kinetic energy would transfer and destroy the tube. I don't plan on keeping this rifle or round by my bedside anymore. I'm sure that 7.62 x 39 would have obliterated that target.

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Not too sure, I was shooting @ a small 8" pumpkin with my x39 @ 175yds and the bugger didn't even move once. I walked up to it and saw about 6 holes going clean through.

But I will agree that the 5.45 seems a bit like a pea-shooter.

Piont being that you never can tell with odd-ball targets. A high speed FMJ bullet compared to a defensive 9mm round are 2 different worlds.

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um I hate to say this, but rifle rounds do that. I shot a hard drive with a .308 and it just hole punched. Shot it with my .45 and KABOOOOOM, same with my 9mm. I've got 3 old hard drives to do the old DOD level erase on with a rifle, I'll get pics next time if I think of it.

 

The 5.56 TAP rounds into a long ways water melon at 150 yards was nice, it was split it 4ths and nothing on the inside was left, a 30-30 did the same, same with cantelope

It depends on the target also. I've shot Honeydews and had a nice entry hole and a huge exit and plenty of fruit left with a pistol. High power rifle shot will decimate them.

 

And bullet type matters as well. FMJ doesn't do as much as the TAPs or hunting rounds even on small targets. Shooting apples with the 30-30 and .41 mag was the most fun, they just disappear.

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Well like I said, I figured with the round traveling at super sonic speeds through the silicone that it would have delivered one hell of a hydrostatic shock. It didn't. I was reading up on the tko factor for the 5.45 x 39 and it's not rated very highly. I guess the Russians ultimately went down the same road we did and developed a primary wounding round. The 7.62 x 39, 51, 54 ....will probably always be a superior one shot man stoppers.

Edited by DLT
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There is a video floating around youtube showing the wound ballistics on a ham thigh. Small hole in, massive exit wound.

 

5.45x39 will tumble quicker than 7.62x39 at shorter ranges, but i like mine for it's accuracy.

 

My 47 and 74 fill two different rolls, in my mind.

 

I've seen x-rays of what 5.56 can do to the human thigh at point blank range and it's not pretty.

 

Because of their high velocity, rifle rounds are notorious for passing clean through unless they hit something vital.

 

Let the caulk tube dry out, remove the plastic and then shoot it. I'll bet it makes a mess. ;)

Edited by Sim_Player
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That's what you are going to get out of it. This is an issue of design. Rifle rounds are made to go at high rates of speed, penetrate, and (especially for small caliber rounds) tumble or break up. The problem with shooting a tube, or anything thin, is the round isn't given enough time to perform its terminal action of tumbling or sheering apart. Now, get yourself some SP 5.45, .223, or .308 and watch the fun that something like that brings. A FMJ isn't a proper defense round, you want either large caliber or open/soft tip for true energy transfer in a defense round. If its with a rifle round, the SP or HP is pretty much a requirement

 

Here's some videos to show you how much difference it can make:

 

 

 

Look at the depth for both, and notice the FMJ takes a few more inches to actually start causing large cavitation

Edited by VR6Shooter
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A clueless thread. You want things to go boom? Stick to your S12. You want to drop a target at distance that is a threat to you? Use your 5.45x39.

 

If it was a such a shitty round, the Russians wouldn't have been using it for the last 39 years as their main military caliber...

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Not saying that it's a shitty round at all. Just stating that I was surprised that the round failed to transfer any noticeable energy to the target I was shooting at. It just made me wonder that if I had to use this weapon in my home for example, would the rounds simply pass through the assailant? I can't find any sp or hp in 5.45 x 39 and not really sure that I would want any. I've got plenty of 7.62 x 39 hp and 12 ga buck and slug which I know will put a big man down instantly. Too bad they don't make a Saiga in 45 acp that could be SBR'd.

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Most rifle bullets take a couple to a few inches to begin to create a cavity and tumble or break up.

 

Go buy a couple of raw chickens. Sew the neck hole shut. Fill em with some chilli, hungry man, or something along those lines. Close up the butt with some duct tape to hold the new guts in the chicken carcass. Take those out and shoot em! You should get better results.

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The hollow point 7.62x39 and 5.45, don't act like a typical handgun caliber hollow point. They usually just flatten out and or get mangled up a little bit just like an FMJ does. You want to see some carnage, get some soft point rounds.

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Ooh boy, this is like a caliber war AND pistols vs shotguns vs rifle all rolled into one!

 

Some people are going to get righteous up in here, because, you see, what they chose

to buy and stock, is obviously the best.

 

The idea behind the small caliber rounds is that they will tumble and supposedly create such

a honking hole that the hollow point (which, incidentally, is harder to pull off in smaller calibers)

isn't really necessary. The 5-7 FN pistol functions on this premise, too. Larger caliber, like 30 and

more, can be had in hollow and soft points, and that is how they do their wound channel creation.

 

The idea behind the small caliber round is not that they are more, or even less, lethal. Anyone

who says the 5.56 or the 5.45 is designed to "wound" (insert bullshit about tying up their fellows

hauling them off the battlefield) is welcome to shoot themselves with one and I'll watch, then call the

paramedics. The idea was that a soldier could have more rounds, and more rounds in each mag.

 

However, there's a reason that the designated marksman and snipers use at least .308 winchester

and that's more damage, further downrange. Your 7.62 x39 will always do more damage than the 5.45,

since it's a bigger bullet with more energy. I assume you could hot rod the piss out of the 5.45 and make

it do more, but, for factory loadings, I'd bet on the x39.

 

For a bedside gun, do you want a high powered rifle? Sure, but you should have something else as well. A 30 cal

rifle will be louder than fuck and blast through walls. Your pistol does great in your bedroom, the shotgun

is for the house and yard, and the battle rifle is for holding down your street.

 

That caulk tube took that slow, fat, hollowpoint bullet and blew up. The rifle punched through since the target

was a joke. But, even IF you just punch through some dude, he is going to bleed out two holes and be missing

organs, assuming you placed shots center mass. All of these will work, provided you do your part.

 

For fun, fill a milk bottle with water and shoot that with the rifle. You'll get your energy transfer.

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Watch this 7N6 video and pay attention to initial penetration. This is what everyone is saying about tumble. You will see it slice through, once it hits its tumble point it explodes and causes a lot of cavitation. This is why they kept it in service. I can't find any SP or HP videos, so no comparison for the 5.45 FMJ and SP/HP

Edited by VR6Shooter
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Great idea for a project for you. Google how to make ballistic gel (recipes online are awesomely easy and work). Make a block 12" thick and shoot it at different ranges adn see the different wound channels it creates. As mentioned above rifle rounds are screaming compared to pistol so it takes some time for it to slow down before energy transfer can occur. Pistol rounds, especially personal defense rounds, have a huge surface area that makes contact with the surface as opposed to most rifle rounds that have sharp points designed to reduce friction for distance flight.

 

If you could shoot it long way through the tube, from end to end instead of through the side I think the results would have been different.

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I watched a tv show where they were shooting 556 into balistics gell and they slowed it down quite a bit. Those things made a huge mess of the gell once that bullet started tumbling. Was actually pretty bad ass.

 

I've shot 556 into into manikin heads and had the same result as you. They are only thin rubber with basically spray foam in them. I never worried about it as I knew the bullet was haulin ass. My neighbor owns a beauty school. So we get all the manicans when they are done with them. We usually decorate them to be non PC individuals and there's not too much left when we leave the range, haha. I've got a couple in the garage that I'mma dig out most of the foam and fill it with something that the 556 wont punch through so quickly and maybe even make a mess. Suggestions?

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I watched a tv show where they were shooting 556 into balistics gell and they slowed it down quite a bit. Those things made a huge mess of the gell once that bullet started tumbling. Was actually pretty bad ass.

 

I've shot 556 into into manikin heads and had the same result as you. They are only thin rubber with basically spray foam in them. I never worried about it as I knew the bullet was haulin ass. My neighbor owns a beauty school. So we get all the manicans when they are done with them. We usually decorate them to be non PC individuals and there's not too much left when we leave the range, haha. I've got a couple in the garage that I'mma dig out most of the foam and fill it with something that the 556 wont punch through so quickly and maybe even make a mess. Suggestions?

fill their heads up with stuff, it's funny

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I watched a tv show where they were shooting 556 into balistics gell and they slowed it down quite a bit. Those things made a huge mess of the gell once that bullet started tumbling. Was actually pretty bad ass.

 

I've shot 556 into into manikin heads and had the same result as you. They are only thin rubber with basically spray foam in them. I never worried about it as I knew the bullet was haulin ass. My neighbor owns a beauty school. So we get all the manicans when they are done with them. We usually decorate them to be non PC individuals and there's not too much left when we leave the range, haha. I've got a couple in the garage that I'mma dig out most of the foam and fill it with something that the 556 wont punch through so quickly and maybe even make a mess. Suggestions?

J-E-L-L-O

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This thread has been surprisingly civil. :)

 

A Saiga SBR chambered in .45 ACP would be sweet!

 

Yes, 5.45 would probably pass clean through a perp at close range, unless you hit bone. Like any other rifle caliber, it is NOT an ideal home defense round. It would make a good neighborhood defense round, however.

 

 

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Edited by Sim_Player
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A clueless thread. You want things to go boom? Stick to your S12. You want to drop a target at distance that is a threat to you? Use your 5.45x39.

 

If it was a such a shitty round, the Russians wouldn't have been using it for the last 39 years as their main military caliber...

Well PUT! The right tool for the right job!

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You'd get more BOOM out of a small target like that by shooting .22LR HP, for a fraction of the cost.

 

Seems like common sense to me to expect a FMJ rifle bullet to go straight through stuff like this. See the gel videos above for what it actually does to flesh - 5.56 and 5.45 are both awful wounders. The lethality argument about these small calibers is ridiculous - either one will mess you up terribly.

 

One of the reasons that Russia and satellite nations still use 7.62x39 heavily, is that it does exactly what you seem to think it shouldn't do - penetrate barriers. This is why you still see 7.62x39 still being used heavily by urban police forces and units engaged in urban/suburban areas. If NATO had a true standardized intermediate caliber between 5.56 and 7.62, we would be using it the same way.

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