ec4321 113 Posted April 29, 2013 Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 (edited) Had my barrel chopped and a perm attached bonesteel brake. Went out today for the first time since and put an incredible amount of rounds down range. It was a good day indeed. Shot the Vepr, my Aug, an AK, my Benelli M4 and even an Old Model 75 22lr with peep sights that my father shot on his highschool match team. Anyway... the Vepr with the new rig, FTE'd pretty bad on Winchester Universal and even pretty consistently, though not as bad, on Federal Bulk Packs both picked up from Walmart. I expected this from the chop and perm - but wanted to try it first before I started monkeying with the system to get it back to feeding cheap low brass again. It still feeds magnums fine so I am good hands should I need to really use this beast. No issues with Bulk Packs before Chop and Perm. So what do the guru's say about next steps? Reduced springs? Bolt Carrier and FCG reprofile/polish? If it was yours, what would you be doing to get it eating bulk packs again? Picture of the unit in question: Edited April 29, 2013 by ec4321 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted April 29, 2013 Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 Keep the mechanicals the same and increase port size by small increments. If you have a cordless drill and the other tools, you could even step up port sizes at the range. Just bring an assortment of the tiny lettern and number size bits and increase in steps of ~ 0.002" As it gets close, you might do 2 of the five ports 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
obiwanbonjovi 337 Posted April 29, 2013 Report Share Posted April 29, 2013 I would lap all the moving parts before I monkeyed with anything else. You'd be amazed at what 15 minutes and some valve grinding compound can do.. I love your vepr it is gorgeous btw. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rs51085 136 Posted May 1, 2013 Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 That is a beautiful gun. I had a similar expirence with an s 12. Here is what I did to get it back to 100% with bulk packs. I profiled and polished the bottom of the bolt and carrier as well as the tapco trigger assy. And then installed a jte performance hammer spring, which further reduces the resistance of the hammer on the carrier. That got it back to about 98%. Then I installed a md arms booster puck which got it to 100% reliable again. Unfortunately they don't make a booster puck for the vepr yet. So if I were you I would start with a slight reprofile and polish and a new hammer spring. Before I started messing with port sizes I would reduce as much friction as possible, that is just my opinion. Then if that didn't work I would start increasing port size. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tactical_T 6 Posted May 1, 2013 Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 Your customized V12 looks great. How about some more pics, and details on "all" the modifications...??? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted May 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 Thanks guys. Great advice. Will try to get some more pictures. As for the mods: Bonesteel Brake - Chopped Barrel to 18" with Brake Magpul UBR Stock Rifled Dynamics / IWC AK/AR Buttstock Adapter G2 Trigger CSS Puck CSS Aluminium Rail Magpul Rail Sections attached to modified handguard (Dremel) Safety, Handguard, Rails and PG cerakoted. Railed Gas Block from Kvar I think that is the bulk of it so far. I have the JTE guide rod, and I have a CSS Spring on their way... also looking at Bolt Carrier, Bolt and FCG polish re-profile but I haven't done any of this just yet... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
raidersfan_5544 57 Posted May 1, 2013 Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 (edited) Hey EC how did that CSS rail seem to hold up during your range time? Were you running optics or just using irons? Did you notice any carrier strikes on the larger front screw head? Like I was saying in that other thread i'm curious about this particular mod as I might be going that route myself. Oh, like others have said...you have a nice looking V12 for sure and if it were me I would start with some polishing then work from there. Edited May 1, 2013 by raidersfan_5544 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted May 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 (edited) Thanks for the reminder. So I ran an eotech on the rail. I forgot to try it with the cover held up, like an idiot. Taking a look under, I don't see any rubbing from the front screw on the CSS rail. However, it looks like it is introducing a new problem, at least with an eotech on it. The center screw seems to be impacting the section of metal that is attached to guide rod between the springs as it reciprocates back and forth. Worse yet, it is catching the front edge of it as the bolt returns to chamber a round. Certainly, this issue must be eliminated to acheive maximum efficency. Would the gun cycle with low brass even if this wasn't a factor? I don't know for sure. It did cycle with high brass no issues. I guess hit that screw with a dremel and possibly that metal cover a bit too... Any thoughts? Does Greg @ CSS know about this? Edited May 1, 2013 by ec4321 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gpqueen 545 Posted May 1, 2013 Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 The metal piece flops around alot, The factory rivet made the same mark as the screw head. I take mine out as it creates more problems with cycyling light loads than keeping any debris out. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted May 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 Hmmm... it definetly wasn't there before the runs with the CSS rail. I know because i took pictures of the inside same area before going out for the shoot this weekend. Before I had the CSS rail installed, I ran the EOTECH on this exact gun. Don't take that the wrong way just trying to figure out why it rubs now, didn't before. I'd rather hit the screw with a dremel than remove that metal piece entirely, at least as a first step. I also have the JTE guide rod from your website, I haven't dove in on that yet.Unfortunately i don't have pictures of the factory rivets to compare... Can someone snap a picture of the factory rivets? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted May 1, 2013 Report Share Posted May 1, 2013 Try polishing the moving internals before you make the ports bigger. Like Obi said, you'll be surprised at how much it can help. That is a badass shotgun. Looks like a keeper. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted May 2, 2013 Report Share Posted May 2, 2013 There is no wear on mine anywhere but the taller front rivet making contact with the carrier. The two smaller rivets dont really stick out much, but they still arent exactly flush. The shutter on the RSA has not made any contact on my shotgun at all, nor has it made contact with the two rear rivets. I have close to a thousand shells through it so far, and the only portion of the shutter that makes any contact with anything is with the bolt carrier and part of my dust cover when its moving rearward under recoil. And it barely kisses the dust cover. Hope this helps Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted May 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 2, 2013 (edited) Hey Captain- thanks - Did you happen to have an optic on top for any of those 1k rounds? Edited May 2, 2013 by ec4321 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted May 2, 2013 Report Share Posted May 2, 2013 I did have a Trijicon reflex on it for around 300 of them or so. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DresNightfire 39 Posted June 22, 2013 Report Share Posted June 22, 2013 I'm reviving this topic to request more pics of your gorgeous VEPR 12 EC. More like some gun pr0n, hero shots, or in-action shots of her please. Did you end up removing or keeping the dust flap that Greg mentioned earlier? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted June 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2013 Will get some mor pics soon. The FCG, Bolt Carrier and Bolt are on their way back from being re-profiled/polished. For the recoil spring/dust flap / rail screws - I took the offending screw out and reprofiled it with a dremel then polished it to a mirror shine. It can no longer 'catch' on there as it clearly had. I also re-profiled, believe it or not, the dust flap that is connected to the recoil spring assembly. so that it is thinner and has a ramped edge, it is also mirror shined down the center. I suspect (hope) it will feed the low brass again once all the parts are re-united. If not, will consider 1) a lighter recoil spring for low brass loads, 2) mucking with the ports. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted August 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 Got my fcg and bolt/ carrier back. Feeds federal bulk great. Win universal not so much. Eotech on top causes ftf and FTE. (Capitan which trij reflex do u have?) ... (Need to read cobras thread again). Have not tried lighter spring but it does feed win universal when butt stock is on a tree. I have a very aggressive stance so its not that, but obviously a tree is more sturdy. Going to try universal with eotech on tree in a minute. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted August 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 Win universal with eotech against tree still has issues. Out of federal so can't verify but I recall this working. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted August 4, 2013 Report Share Posted August 4, 2013 Muck with the ports please, sir. Your gun should run however you hold it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Muffman 54 Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 (edited) Which model eotech? Also assuming you have mounted as far back as it can go? And you take off eotech and it runs fine? Edited August 5, 2013 by Muffman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Got my fcg and bolt/ carrier back. Feeds federal bulk great. Win universal not so much. Eotech on top causes ftf and FTE. (Capitan which trij reflex do u have?) ... (Need to read cobras thread again). Have not tried lighter spring but it does feed win universal when butt stock is on a tree. I have a very aggressive stance so its not that, but obviously a tree is more sturdy. Going to try universal with eotech on tree in a minute. I have an RX-06 triangle. I love it. When I ran it on my V12, I mounted it as far back as I could, while still being able to use it comfortably and didnt have any issues. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Muffman 54 Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Eotech's are very popular in Russia and Europe on Vepr 12's. I would be surprised and disheartened to hear it causing issues mounted as far back as it can, especially an XPS series. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted August 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 It is an XPS. Tried it far back, far front, and middle. Remember I do have the CSS Rail on top, I did grind down mid screw and polish. The front screw I polished to a shine but didn't grind it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Um, what should it matter whether you polished the screws. Is the bolt carrier hitting them? It should not be. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted August 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Um, what should it matter whether you polished the screws. Is the bolt carrier hitting them? It should not be. On the vepr, the front rivet/screw does hit the carrier and ride it for ~inch. Apparently helps the LRBHO. Secondly with the scews from the CSS rail, the dust cover flap that rides on the recoil spring impacts (badly) the middle screw. See post #8. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/87784-chopped-barrel-with-bonesteel-brake-reduced-gas-dwell-time-ftes-with-bulk-pack/&do=findComment&comment=897029 CSS's advise was to remove the dust cover flap thingy. Which I have done for testing to make sure it wasn't a factor today, but that's why the screw was reprofiled/polished - to avoid that issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 The shutter shouldnt be an issue, but did it still fail even with the shutter removed? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Muffman 54 Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 (edited) So you take off Eotech and it runs fine? Sounds like you have too many variables... Try to remove as many as possible. Obviously you cannot undo the rail and the barrel. Everything else should be returned to factory and ditch any optic for now to help narrow down issue/issues. Is your only problem Win bulk? If it feeds Fed bulk fine then who cares? I don't even know if mine runs Win bulk. Don't care to find out either. Fed bulk imo is > then Win bulk... Edited August 5, 2013 by Muffman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ec4321 113 Posted August 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 The shutter shouldnt be an issue, but did it still fail even with the shutter removed? Yes. Failed with the Eotech or Win U even without the optic. Shutter was removed today entirely. So you take off Eotech and it runs fine? Sounds like you have too many variables... Try to remove as many as possible. Obviously you cannot undo the rail and the barrel. Everything else should be returned to factory and ditch any optic for now to help narrow down issue/issues. Is your only problem Win bulk? If it feeds Fed bulk fine then who cares? I don't even know if mine runs Win bulk. Don't care to find out either. Fed bulk imo is > then Win bulk... Yes. but before rail/chop/perm brake it ran with the eotech just fine. I think I am just barely on the line. Re-read Cobras thread, and this post probably nails it: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/86407-confirmed-optic-rail-not-useless-after-all-edit/&do=findComment&comment=877293 I can try the lighter spring, or try opening up the gas. With higher powered loads none of this is an issue so I am not sure it really matters to me - it's just running the junk is a measure of if everything is in order it seems - so getting there would be ideal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 I ran some winchester bulk yesterday, but only a few mags, and I did have a few ftf's, but one was the shell catching on the barrel, and the other was my fault for limp shouldering. Mine has run both win and fed bulk without issues when I do my part. Keep in mind this shitty ammo could and likely will have variations with the loadings, but it should still cycle them even though these loads are bare minimum power-wise. The shutter shouldnt be an issue, but did it still fail even with the shutter removed? Yes. Failed with the Eotech or Win U even without the optic. Shutter was removed today entirely. That sucks bud. Its obviously not the shutter causing any issues then. Did you notice any more contact at all with the shutter removed and no optic? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
burtpowder 0 Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Does anyone think there is much corrosion resistance benefit to hard chroming the bolt and carrier? They seem to come heavily blued from the factory and I am thinking the Russians know how to protect their weapons? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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