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Dadio42

IZ-433 Magwell question

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I recently purchased an IZ-433 at a gun show in Pace Florida and I have had a problem with finding magazines that work with my gun. I tried adapting a rock and lock magazine but it would not seat in place. Second I purchased a VEPR-12 magazine and again it would not seat all the way. Both would fall out when firing but cycled perfectly. I repeatedly slapped the crap out of them but was worried the magwell would break. I thought I solved the problem when I purchased 4 new SGM 10 rounders made just for the unconverted IZ-433 030 model. They all seated properly but the round sit farther back in the magazine than the other 2 did as well as the factory 4 rounder. The base of the round was being grabbed by the LRBHO causing a FTL. When I manually adjusted the first round the following rounds would not allow the weapon to cycle manually. I tried this with all 4 magazines. I carried the gun back to the dealer that sold me the gun and he checked the magazines on another 030 with the same results. Anyone had this problem with this model of Saiga-12. I went through the mags in this order due to availability, the factory ones were not available when I first purchased the gun.

 

When I figure the picture posting I will add them.

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Are you having problems with the factory 4 rounders? Legion USA has the correct 8 round mags for your shotgun, by the way. I only run the Russian 8 rounders in mine and I've never had a problem.

 

Lee

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The issue of SGM 030 magazines not properly working with the 433A is a new and developing problem. SGM and Legion are both aware of the issues but it is uncertain what is being done about it. Currently the only magazines that will work with your model are the police mags that Leland mentioned. Unfortunately Legion USA has not had them in stock since the panic began in December. I personally would be pissed off as all hell. Be patient and check the forum often as I am hopeful that the issue will be resolved. When those police mags do come back in stock the forum members will be some of the first to know.

 

Here's the disclaimer now found on the e-store's website: "10-round magazine for the Saiga-12 LEGION shotguns equipped with a FACTORY magwell (Model IZ-433, IZ-412)
These magazines will NOT function in model IZ-433A that has a pistol grip installed by LEGION."

 

I am perplexed on why converting to a pistol grip would change anything. SGM states that Legion has changed it's LRBHO design.

Edited by HighPlainsDrifter

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The 4 magazines I purchased from the e store were SGMT1210L but my IZ-433 030 is not converted, it doesn't have the pistol grip. I also read about the 433A not working with anything but factory magazines, this also seemed odd. The dealer that sold me the weapon says he can remove the factory magwell and it will work with the rock and locks magazines, but being he did not have any in stock he couldn't prove it. The info I had said the receiver was milled more from the factory so standard magazines would not work. Thinking seriously about selling my IZ-433 and finding one already converted and without the plastic magwell. After being in the service for 20 years plastic weapons parts scare me. On a side note the weapon works flawlessly with the factory 4 rounder.

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The problem might be with your LRBHO. I have my Iz-447 in the conversion process which I've taken the LRBHO out of mine. When I get home I'll take a few pictures of the mechanism and post them up later this evening. In the mean time could you possibly take a picture of the internals with a seated magazine with a round in it? Hinge the top cover and take out the bolt/carrier. Take the picture looking top down. I want to see how far forward your LRBHO is reaching. I'll rig mine back together and do the same so we can compare.

 

My thoughts are that we might be able to bend the mechanism and get it to work. My second thought is you can always temporarily take out the mechanism and your firearm should cycle fine. This could buy you some range time until we get that LRBHO to work.

 

Edited: Don't take the magwell off thinking you can use rock-n-locks. The dealer is full of shit!

Edited by HighPlainsDrifter

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Sounds like you have diagnosed your problem, the mags. Here's my guess, your gonna have the best luck with Izzy magwell mags or Molot Vepr mags. Seeing how your SGM Tactcal mag fell out, I'm guessing your mag latch isn't bottoming out all the way. You might need to fit the mags (no matter what brand you buy) to the gun. Dispite SGM Tacticals warning, I have found that their "Vepr12" mags work just fine in the 433 and 412, but are tight to insert. The Izzy mag latches are longer than the Molot Vepr latch. This is why your SGM Tactical mag is so tight. As I said before, they will fall out if the catch isn't fully bottomed out on the lug.

 

Don't remove the magwell. You are right in that the receiver will be too big (long) to run regular rock-n-lock mags. It can be done, but you need to make a furring strip out of a piece of metal and bolt it to the hole the magwell used near the front of the receiver. Evlblkwpns and Pauly have played with this. Personally, I wouldn't go that route. I would buy a Molot Vepr 8rd mag, fit it to the gun, and test. Once that works, buy more.

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Converted a Vepr-12 to work in my S-12 yesterday, so it obviously can work with modification.

post-3938-0-94600400-1367427300_thumb.jpg

I would suggest that you just hang in there until Legion gets more factory S-12 magwell mags in. Cost between the factory Vepr-12 vs. S-12 mags is close. Molot $112.27 shipped vs. Legion S-12 $109.00 shipped.

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Here's a comparison. S-12 on left vs. Vepr-12 on right. As you can see. The S-12 mag has a rectangular cutout below the lug for the mag catch to lock into.post-3938-0-05161300-1367428410_thumb.jpg

As far as the bolt hold open, I had no issues with the Vepr mag. Only mod I did to the Vepr was cutting that slot out so the catch would lock and that's it. Everything else worked just fine.

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FWIW, I have coverted IZ433's. They came with the 4 round mags. I finally found some VEPR 12 10 rounders and they work flawlessly. Feed Cycle, and LRBHO works as advertised. Again this is with the Vepr 12 10 round magazines.

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FWIW, I have coverted IZ433's. They came with the 4 round mags. I finally found some VEPR 12 10 rounders and they work flawlessly. Feed Cycle, and LRBHO works as advertised. Again this is with the Vepr 12 10 round magazines.

Vepr-12 10rd. mags? Are they Russian or U.S. aftermarket?

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Yes the Vepr mags will work with the 433 with slight modification, Legion will also have a nice large new shipment of mags (factory magwell and rock and locks), rifles, and shotguns within the month. Including 10 round vepr mags that will work with the 433 with slight modification.

 

The only thing you need to do to make the vepr mags work with the 433 is to trim the tab so that it clears the last round bolt hold open lever, and the magazine latch.

Edited by kitchengunsmith433

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The only thing you need to do to make the vepr mags work with the 433 is to trim the tab so that it clears the last round bolt hold open lever, and the magazine latch.

Interesting. Guess I got lucky. I didn't have to trim the tab so it would clear the last round bolt hold open lever. Just had to cut out that notch below the lug.

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The only thing you need to do to make the vepr mags work with the 433 is to trim the tab so that it clears the last round bolt hold open lever, and the magazine latch.
Interesting. Guess I got lucky. I didn't have to trim the tab so it would clear the last round bolt hold open lever. Just had to cut out that notch below the lug.

 

FWIW, I didn't have to trim any tab or cut out the notch below the lug.

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The only thing you need to do to make the vepr mags work with the 433 is to trim the tab so that it clears the last round bolt hold open lever, and the magazine latch.

Interesting. Guess I got lucky. I didn't have to trim the tab so it would clear the last round bolt hold open lever. Just had to cut out that notch below the lug.

 

 

FWIW, I didn't have to trim any tab or cut out the notch below the lug.

WOW! And that's with a factory mag? You REALLY got lucky!

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The only thing you need to do to make the vepr mags work with the 433 is to trim the tab so that it clears the last round bolt hold open lever, and the magazine latch.
Interesting. Guess I got lucky. I didn't have to trim the tab so it would clear the last round bolt hold open lever. Just had to cut out that notch below the lug.
FWIW, I didn't have to trim any tab or cut out the notch below the lug.
WOW! And that's with a factory mag? You REALLY got lucky!

 

To clarify, I have no idea what tab kitchengunsmith433 is talking about. I never had any issue with the LRBHO on any mag (Vepr, Saiga, SGMT V12) in any gun (V12, IZ412, IZ433). Nor did I need to notch the Izzy mags for the mag latch (although I don't think that's a bad idea). However, by switching all my guns to a JTE extended mag latch I did need to file down the rear locking lug on a few Molot Vepr mags. None of my Izzy or SGMT V12 mags needed filing to work with the longer JTE extended latch. Due to loose Russian tolerances, YMMV.

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Here are the pictures of the problem I'm having with the SGM magazines. The LRBHO is closing on the Base of the round causing it to not feed or load. I also noticed that the round sets further back in the SGM compared to the other two. The only issue I have with the VEPR magazine is it falls out when firing. I have tried to modify it but took to much material off causing it to be loose and not fix the falling issue. I sent an email to SGM on or about 12 Apr 13 from their website with no response. I purchased 4 magazines at once made especially for the IZ-433 030 model. Has anyone had any issue similar to mine.

 

Legion factory magazine SGM magazine for the 030 model VEPR12 magazine



On a side note how are the plastic magwells holding up over time. Any cracking or breaking problems noted

post-47284-0-54351100-1367792469_thumb.jpg

post-47284-0-40748000-1367792474_thumb.jpg

post-47284-0-46296600-1367792479_thumb.jpg

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Dadio42, the answer to your problem with your SGM magazines is in the video of post #8. I personally haven't had this problem but that's AK tolerances for you.

 

I have yet to hear of any cracking/breaking issues with the plastic magwell. You can always address your concerns by swapping it out with the Vepr-12 magwell which is metal. At one time I found some overpriced at russiansurplus.net. They currently don't have any but do a search, maybe you'll find one somewhere else.

 

Onto the issue of your Vepr-12 magazine. You might possibly be able to add material back by the process of plastic welding. It might be worth a shot.

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Do all SGM Saiga L magazines fit the same way or do I have a bad batch. If the 030 and the VEPR kind if interchange why does the round set so far back in the magazine on the 030. Also when loading the magazines by hand or unloading the rounds, they catch near the top of the magazine making me manually move the round to allow feeding.

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Also when loading the magazines by hand or unloading the rounds, they catch near the top of the magazine making me manually move the round to allow feeding.

 

There is a tab on the rear inside wall of the magazine located right below where the cutout is made for the LRBHO mechanism.. Depress the follower and you'll see it. My rounds have been known to catch on this "bump" of plastic with new magazines. It smooths out with time. I suggest loading and unloading some dummy shells in each magazine until the problem goes away.

 

It is this tab that actually pushes the round forward enough allowing clearance for the LRBHO. This might be part of your problem with the LRBHO catching as well. Look for it, tell me it's there. I was unsuccessful at taking a picture of what I'm trying to verbalize.

Edited by HighPlainsDrifter

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Dadio42:

My factory mags vs. the SGM mags look identical to your pics.

If you look at the pics you will notice that the LRBHO sits over the shell on the SGM. Also, note the relation of the front of the shell into the receiver, It is also sitting to far back. I think this is the problem. I removed the LRBHO and when I try to cycle the rounds they get hung up on the rim of the shell causing it to bend and keeps the bolt from cycling back. It looks like the VEPR mag is closer to what it needs to be.

 

 

This is what I posted in the subject "legion usa saiga" .

I have the Legion 433 (not the a model).

I bought the SGM 12 rounder from the e-store that was designated for this gun bearing in mind it will not work in the a model. The magazine does not work in this particular Legion. I held the SGM 12 rounder next to the mag that came with the gun and you can see a big difference. Although the SGM will snap into place it sits further back towards the trigger. The LRBHO sits over the shells about a 1/4", way to much to bend out of the way. In doing my research the LRBHO was machined too long and can be tweeked for some models and will work, but not in mine. I removed the LRBHO altogether and it will not cycle. For the SGM mag to work I would have to remove material from the front of the mag and add material to the back. I spoke to SGM and was told that their mags would be a hit or miss in the 433. They made a production run of mags based on one gun sent from Legion. Since then Legion has made some modificactions to the 433 magwell. I also spoke with Greg at CSS about the SGM mag as well as some VEPR mags possibly working. Again, hit or miss. My guess is there is a range of serial numbers for the 433 that the SGM mag will work. My next step is to get with Legion and see what mags will work with my serial number. I also will probaly send one of the factory 4 round mags (yes 4 rounds, it came with three mags) to CSS so he can do a side by side comparison with the Molot and SGM Vepr mags to see if one might work. Other than this issue the Legion 433-030 with the magwell, self regulating gas system and factory mags works flawlessly with any shells that I put in it.

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I would like to clear up any misinformation. We have not modified the magwell nor the LRBHO when converting the 433 to a 433A. From what I have noticed, the issue seems to be with the tolerances. I am sure everyone knows that not all saigas are identical. I have tried to get the SGM mags to work in many different magwell equipped saigas. Some work without any modification while others need extensive fitting. The SGM magazine does sit at a different angle then the factory magazine and it does not seat as high into the magwell as the factory magazine. I have had effective results by trimming the tang inside the magwell that holds the magazine in place. This allows the SGM magazine to go higher up into the magwell and cycle properly.

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I would like to clear up any misinformation. We have not modified the magwell nor the LRBHO when converting the 433 to a 433A. From what I have noticed, the issue seems to be with the tolerances. I am sure everyone knows that not all saigas are identical. I have tried to get the SGM mags to work in many different magwell equipped saigas. Some work without any modification while others need extensive fitting. The SGM magazine does sit at a different angle then the factory magazine and it does not seat as high into the magwell as the factory magazine. I have had effective results by trimming the tang inside the magwell that holds the magazine in place. This allows the SGM magazine to go higher up into the magwell and cycle properly.

This same problem happens with the sgm vepr12 mags in a vepr 12. SGM stance with the vepr 12 is the gun is at fault. Even after they are told any all factory mags works and even modified agp's work. So the pattern is the same with SGM, they have a poor knock off mag and blame the firearms ,not the mag that's at fault. And what is funny is they are proud of their design as it sits in the gun at the wrong angle and too low. I'am 100% sure that SGM mags in my friends and mine vepr12's makes the guns less reliable. With sgm blaming Legion that you "changed" something when you conveted the firearm when you did nothing to the gun is sad on sgm part. And not surprising to me and a few others around here.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/86877-sgm-10rd/

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Here are the pictures of the problem I'm having with the SGM magazines. The LRBHO is closing on the Base of the round causing it to not feed or load. I also noticed that the round sets further back in the SGM compared to the other two. The only issue I have with the VEPR magazine is it falls out when firing. I have tried to modify it but took to much material off causing it to be loose and not fix the falling issue. I sent an email to SGM on or about 12 Apr 13 from their website with no response. I purchased 4 magazines at once made especially for the IZ-433 030 model. Has anyone had any issue similar to mine.

 

Legion factory magazine SGM magazine for the 030 model VEPR12 magazine

 

On a side note how are the plastic magwells holding up over time. Any cracking or breaking problems noted

 

 

 

Be very carful with that situation with your gun, my friend vepr 12 had the same problem as in your pics. When loading a loaded mag into the gun, slight rocking of the mag will cause the back of the brass to hit the LRBHO lever and releasing the bolt and 50% of the time it will chamber a round as the mag locks into the gun. Or it will travel across the top of the shell almost cutting threw the pastic shell.

Edited by HAVOK12

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vepr 12 mags work just fine in my 030. Just take a file to the bottom of the locking lug and take a thousandth of an inch at a time until it clicks in positive.

 

The LRBHO works also. Lots of misinfo on this forum.. Yes the guns can be different spec, but it's nothing some minor minor modification won't fix. Lots of white collar desk jockey guys who can barely work a stapler seem to be in this hobby..

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Here are the pictures of the problem I'm having with the SGM magazines. The LRBHO is closing on the Base of the round causing it to not feed or load. I also noticed that the round sets further back in the SGM compared to the other two. The only issue I have with the VEPR magazine is it falls out when firing. I have tried to modify it but took to much material off causing it to be loose and not fix the falling issue. I sent an email to SGM on or about 12 Apr 13 from their website with no response. I purchased 4 magazines at once made especially for the IZ-433 030 model. Has anyone had any issue similar to mine.

 

Legion factory magazine SGM magazine for the 030 model VEPR12 magazine

 

On a side note how are the plastic magwells holding up over time. Any cracking or breaking problems noted

 

Yours looks exactly like mine did. I made the video in Post #8.

 

You can take the LRBHO out and tweak it to work with the SGM magazines, or you can buy only the Russian magazines. Those are pretty much your only options as I see them. I, obviously, decided to work on my LRBHO lever. I works now with both SMG Legion and VEPR magazines. The only Issue I have, as I stated in the video, is with some of the Federal ammo in the SGM magazines as the rims seem to be a bit thicker.

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if you read or have read my post, " legion usa saiga" i explained how i got the SGM mags to work in my

 

legion 433a. it only took about 15mins. of heating up the bho, tweaking, trying a mag out and then repeating

 

the procedure again. i have done this to 4 sgm mags for the magwell version which their web site states," will not

 

work in legion 433a version". if you want a mag to fit right out of the box, your stuck with spending $100+ on izzy originals.

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Mine fit right out of the box and the LRBHO works just fine... med_gallery_45490_1194_45296.jpg

if your one of the lucky ones like the poster above.

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