Why I wont buy a Stoner rifle...

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Oh yeah.

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/05/foghorn/brand-new-ar-15-bolt-disintegrates-owner-not-happy/#comment-1047647

 

[YOT 3,743]

Wut? AKs don't come apart? No other guns come apart?

[magsite20 1,664]

^{might need to add a few to your list.}

[Remek 771]

I may not agree with your comment, but I loved the presentation!

[Syndicate 812]

I haven't and won't buy a shrubmaster. Maybe a lower as long as it isn't plastic, but ya...

That is inexcusable. And people always whine when I tell them to go milspec for the BCG.

 

also this http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/18/us-cerberus-freedomgroup-idUSBRE8BH08F20121218

Edited May 15, 2013 by Syndicate

[SwissyJim 117]

Carpenter158 steel bolt and individual MPI/HPT testing, properly marked, or I won't even look at the bolt. BCM or Colt all the way. Glad I bought a few of each before the nutties attacked the supply. Got to be wary of production since Dec - rushed parts to market that are subjected to stresses like these cannot and should not be fast tracked. But they are...

[sccritterkiller 473]

That's why I build my own ARs....I only run BMC bcgs with Vltor uppers...I have never had any issues.

[thebuns1 4,323]

Any gun can fail, even our beloved AK's.

[jerry52 893]

Look like the steel pooped up past 3% carbon

[mostholycerebus 415]

There have been some cheap bolts making the rounds lately, usually with inferior steel. They advertise this, but most n00bs wouldnt know the difference between a 158 bolt and a 7075 receiver extension if you showed them a powerpoint presentation.

 

Carpenter158 steel bolt and individual MPI/HPT testing, properly marked, or I won't even look at the bolt. BCM or Colt all the way.

Current metallurgical theory is that the testing process itself is damaging, and weakens the bolt. Batch tested is probably the best solution, that and understanding that no manufacturing process is perfect and the internet now allows the smallest possible percentage of anecdotal stories to be perceived as normal.

Edited May 15, 2013 by mostholycerebus

[jerry52 893]

There have been some cheap bolts making the rounds lately, usually with inferior steel. They advertise this, but most n00bs wouldnt know the difference between a 158 bolt and a 7075 receiver extension if you showed them a powerpoint presentation.

 

Carpenter158 steel bolt and individual MPI/HPT testing, properly marked, or I won't even look at the bolt. BCM or Colt all the way.

Current metallurgical theory is that the testing process itself is damaging, and weakens the bolt. Batch tested is probably the best solution, that and understanding that no manufacturing process is perfect and the internet now allows the smallest possible percentage of anecdotal stories to be perceived as normal.

 

Good point

[SwissyJim 117]

There have been some cheap bolts making the rounds lately, usually with inferior steel. They advertise this, but most n00bs wouldnt know the difference between a 158 bolt and a 7075 receiver extension if you showed them a powerpoint presentation.

 

Carpenter158 steel bolt and individual MPI/HPT testing, properly marked, or I won't even look at the bolt. BCM or Colt all the way.

Current metallurgical theory is that the testing process itself is damaging, and weakens the bolt. Batch tested is probably the best solution, that and understanding that no manufacturing process is perfect and the internet now allows the smallest possible percentage of anecdotal stories to be perceived as normal.

 

Interesting... had not read about this (not that I was looking). Is there a link to a study or report I could read up on? Won't change my mind that quality, brand names that are proven are the way to go, but would like to read up regardless.

[Syndicate 812]

The life is shortened by such a minuscule amount on a grand scale that having piece of mind is much better in my opinion.

 

As you said it's theory.

[storm6490 2,768]

I'd buy a stoner in a heartbeat. I wouldn't buy a 5.56.

 

E. Stoner wanted a .308 and piston not a gas driven pussy rifle.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Mmmmhuh

Thing is I wont have to look at one I own and wonder.

Seen far too much on that rifle to trust it, double now that QC is likely suffering.

 

Oh and BTW if you like em great, may you have nothing but good luck.

[Conscript 99]

Betcha a few of those pics were obstruction/squib/hot loads/impropper headspace. People are real dumbasses when it comes to ammo, especially Fuds.

 

Had a Fud last year at my range when I was working, brand new rifle (was watching him because he said I could have his brass). So he takes a shot (Bang goes the rifle, thump goes the plywood downrange) all is well, he adjusts the scope, really really reefs on the bolt ( I was thinking wtf, that's not a mosin) takes another shot (louder report, no plywood thump) he looks back at me, "I must have gave it too much windage." I snicker because yeah it happens, people get excited. So he continues to adjust his scope.

 

He had a box of 20 remington or some shit, you know Fuds, don't know about grain weight or the application of whatever they end up with. Usually they buy a different weight or brand before hunting and bitch that their rifle is broken afterwards because they weren't sighted for that brand/weight. You know Fuds. But I digress.

 

Anyway, So he has this box of 20 all pretty in it's stand up foam tray. He starts to chamber another one, closes the bolt smooth as butter. I told him to hold the fuck on...I take a look at the markings and this dude had TWO different calibers mixed in this box. He "said" his kid had been fucking around with this ammo. So he turns away and shoulders the rifle again all non-chelantly and my head almost exploded that very second from witnessing such stupidity.

 

Unload your weapon right now

 

Fud: Why?

 

Unload...your weapon

 

Fud: <unloads weapon>

 

Remove the bolt...

 

Fud: <removes bolt>

 

Now look the fuck down the barrel and tell me if you see daylight sir.

 

Fud: ...Oh...Well how do I get it out?...

 

This guy didn't even care that I just saved his life, he was just hot and ready to start blasting away again ASAP. Just think if he was out hunting with his kid in tow and took his face off in the middle of the woods.

[pbwe 45]

"Current metallurgical theory is that the testing process itself is damaging, and weakens the bolt. Batch tested is probably the best solution, that and understanding that no manufacturing process is perfect and the internet now allows the smallest possible percentage of anecdotal stories to be perceived as normal."

 

If the "testing process" simulates normal use, there should be no significant damage to, or metallurgical deterioration of the material (here the component steel). "Batch testing" of service critical components should be standard practice. Still, the particular techniques of heat treating and the QC techniques for selecting a "representative" test samples from the population, if not correctly designed, can remove confidence with batch testing.

 

Looking a the "shattered" bolt, there being multiple pieces, and evident brittle fracture surfaces, I tend to think that the part was, essentially, not tempered.

 

With a hardenable steel, as a rifle bolt should be, the steel should be metallurgically "clean" (low inclusion density and small inclusion size) and have a homogenous microstructure (nominally same size and shape of crystals that make up the steel at a microscopic scale); this is heated quite hot to produce a single phase structure (but not too hot or the grains will grow), and then quenched very fast (in water, or in salt water, or in oil, depending on the particular metallurgical design) to get the hardest possible, or near so, metal; in this state, the quenched metal is quite brittle, as like glass is brittle, and such an engineering material is normally not desirable because brittle materials chracteristcally have low impact toughness, which one might intuitively agree a rifle bolt should have; brittle materials are characteristically "notch sensitive", that is, if there is a sharp geometric feature, this acts as a stress concentrator, and under impact loading, fracture can be easily initiated there; to remove the brittleness, the steel is then tempered to significantly improve the material's impact toughness; if in a furnace batch of components, some region of the steel mass does not see enough time at design temperature, then the tempering will be incomplete; or if the temperature spikes too high, then the metallurgy can degenerate for other reasons and result in embrittled material. So, heat treatment consist of at least two (and often more) steps of thermal cycling; first the material is austenitized and fast quenched, and then the material is tempered and slow cooled.

Edited May 16, 2013 by pbwe

[Arik 565]

This is what happens when you hear phrases like "an AR is an AR" and "You're paying extra for the name". I dont care what you think of the TDP but it shows, and you know, exactly what your rifle is made out of and what standard it followed. ANYTHING can and will break, plenty of AKs and Glock break ....shit happens. But buying an AR from any Jonny come lately manufacturer to save a few hundred $$$ will result in shit like this. Where did that bolt come from? Who made it? Was it outsourced to some other company? What steel did they use? Was it properly heat treated/molded/machined? Sure some work....law of large numbers....but are they just barely holding up to your 1000 rounds a year and will they hold up to actual stress.

 

I'd never buy one of those Bushmasters, Windham, Century, ...etc....etc...First none of them are cheap. Its not like paying $5 for a crappy cell phone case that breaks in a week and you toss it. ARs are at least $500 and up so I'd rather spend a little more to get a name that I can trust. If I can spend $500-$800 on a shitty AR I can come up with a few hundred more for a good one. Second, none of my guns are rare, collectible, or safe queens. I do not buy a rifle just for bullseye or any other competition shooting or just as a range toy (seriously? Range toy? Why?). They are all tools. They will get used. There is no way Im going to bet my life on a Bushmaster or similar lower quality AR

Edited May 16, 2013 by Arik

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Ive had Colts fail also when I was under Uncle's thumb so while I am sure quality pays it doesnt solve design issues.

 

It craps where it eats and that is and will always be a problem.

 

Its been claimed Stoner wanted a piston in his rifle, well no he didn't, he was very proud of the direct impingement system he designed and weight savings it realized. He did want a 308 version but it had serious issues also, full auto with a light rifle in 308? No thanks would take the 223 over that if FA was the point, its perfect for FA. Now in Semi the AR-10 was ok but they wanted FA to compete with the AK. Had it not been for Robert McNamara none of us would even be discussing this, he rammed it down the military's throat. All came down to money in the end.

 

Its a decent rifle I know but long as I can get a AK , FAL, or a Springfield (the good ones ) I will pass.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Rhodes1968

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

This is common knowledge in the AR15 world right now (obviously the blogger did his research before posting).

 

There was a batch of bolts that went out to multiple different manufacturers of bolts that weren't properly hardened.

 

Most reputable distributors still warranty this. Joe Bob Outfitters had a bunch under their house brand and have replaced all of them that were brought to their attention.

 

 

 

Well shiyit Cleetus! Dem dere AR15 dun blowd up. All AR15's is bad then, right?

 

With the massive numbers of AR15's in out country, shit like this does happen. It doesn't make a platform un-ownable because one part manufacturer didn't properly harden their part in a bad batch.

Edited May 16, 2013 by BuffetDestroyer

[magsite20 1,664]

There are long list of:

Food recalls,

Drug recalls,

Automotive recalls,

Aircraft groundings,

And other crap I don’t know about or can’t remember.

 

So guess its best not to eat, cure my headache, or travel.

 

Note the guy below is not an AR owner.

[storm6490 2,768]

Ive had Colts fail also when I was under Uncle's thumb so while I am sure quality pays it doesnt solve design issues.

 

It craps where it eats and that is and will always be a problem.

 

Its been claimed Stoner wanted a piston in his rifle, well no he didn't, he was very proud of the direct impingement system he designed and weight savings it realized. He did want a 308 version but it had serious issues also, full auto with a light rifle in 308? No thanks would take the 223 over that if FA was the point, its perfect for FA. Now in Semi the AR-10 was ok but they wanted FA to compete with the AK. Had it not been for Robert McNamara none of us would even be discussing this, he rammed it down the military's throat. All came down to money in the end.

 

Its a decent rifle I know but long as I can get a AK , FAL, or a Springfield (the good ones ) I will pass.

It's a point I was making. The OP said i wont buy a STONER rifle. An armalite rifle or AR is not a stoner.

[Syndicate 812]

This is what happens when you hear phrases like "an AR is an AR" and "You're paying extra for the name". I dont care what you think of the TDP but it shows, and you know, exactly what your rifle is made out of and what standard it followed. ANYTHING can and will break, plenty of AKs and Glock break ....shit happens. But buying an AR from any Jonny come lately manufacturer to save a few hundred $$$ will result in shit like this. Where did that bolt come from? Who made it? Was it outsourced to some other company? What steel did they use? Was it properly heat treated/molded/machined? Sure some work....law of large numbers....but are they just barely holding up to your 1000 rounds a year and will they hold up to actual stress.

 

I'd never buy one of those Bushmasters, Windham, Century, ...etc....etc...First none of them are cheap. Its not like paying $5 for a crappy cell phone case that breaks in a week and you toss it. ARs are at least $500 and up so I'd rather spend a little more to get a name that I can trust. If I can spend $500-$800 on a shitty AR I can come up with a few hundred more for a good one. Second, none of my guns are rare, collectible, or safe queens. I do not buy a rifle just for bullseye or any other competition shooting or just as a range toy (seriously? Range toy? Why?). They are all tools. They will get used. There is no way Im going to bet my life on a Bushmaster or similar lower quality AR

 

Exactly my point a million times to people.

[Voltia 375]

I am no expert, but I know more than many self-professed experts, so, whatever.

 

That bolt failed from bad manufacturing. That wasn't a "craps where it eats" thing, and

the people that say that are pretty ignorant.

 

Didn't we just have a video on here with torture tests from different ammo? Didn't three

of the four ARs shoot their barrels out before having major malfunctions, and with only

one cleaning, in the shit, and low lube? And the other one filled up its gas tube with carbon

and stopped, not causing a bolt failure like people say DI does?

 

I would think an action that could shoot a barrel out with one cleaning qualifies as reliable,

certainly to anyone who isn't a weapons designer (which no one here is)

[dubya 198]

I've had Bushmaster Carbon 15, S&W MP15 OR, and currently have a Aero lower & BCM upper 6.8, a DPMS lower and Huldra (Adams Arms) piston upper, and just ordered a Boberg billet lower. I've had ZERO problems with any of my AR's, I have had 1 FTF with one of my Saiga's..

 

Not saying AR's are better, I love them the same, but if I put a over loaded round in my Saiga it'd more than likely break too.

[MT Predator 2,294]

I would think an action that could shoot a barrel out with one cleaning qualifies as reliable

+1. Look up Pat Roger's Filthy 14 he uses as a loaner gun at EAG. It's a BCM and last I saw was over 40k rounds without cleaning, just lube.

[SHOTGUN MESIAH 855]

Any gun can fail, even our beloved AK's.

Blasphemy. show me proof.

 

 

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Well the OP wont be buying a Stoner rifle and that is an unalterable condition.

 

Tell you what, take care of an entire regiments armory for a couple of years and come back and tell me you never saw any problems with this rifles design.

 

BTW the rifle is not made to shoot 10k rounds at a range until the heat softens the barrel and ruins it , it is supposed to be a fraking combat rifle... you know mud sand cold heat impact abuse etc etc

 

Oh and as far as the problem with the manufacturing problems, the crap where it eats thing is exactly why the process may fail so easily. Tolerances in that rifle are tight, and I have cleaned repaired and uncraped hundreds of them used in field conditions. Haven't touched one since 1980 for exactly that reason.

 

So please enjoy them, and may they never let you down.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Rhodes1968

[storm6490 2,768]

You won't be buying a stoner rifle because the AR sucks? Strange logic.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

You won't be buying a stoner rifle because the AR sucks? Strange logic.

 

Exactly what nit are you picking?