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That's a total miss conception about giving up your rights under the 4TH. The ATF can ask you to produce the weapon at whatever time, they will call and make an appointment to meet you and they CAN NO

Look here in the "NFA section" and you don't need a licence. What you really want is a good trust designed for the purpose, and a tax stamp. The cans are feasible, but transferable automatics are very

So, from this, I take it the best way to protect a stamped item, if you are worried about your demise, and inheritance by others, is to run a trust? Is that the consensus?

so beef cake are you one of these asshole that call people idiots for calling them silencers because according to the ATF theres no such things as suppressors. legally of course. I love that the last few posts I've seen from you add nothing to the thread, how about explain yourself, where does the term "class three" come from? Cause I'm currently looking at a shotgun news and theres many many "class three" dealer like the ones you say don't exist.

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Monty - it's a misnomer.

A "class 3" dealer exists, sort of. There are three classes of Special Occupational Tax(SOT). Dealers of Title II firearms must pay the Class 3 SOT. Anyone who holds the appropriate FFL can also pay the SOT to deal in Title II firearms.

"Class 3 weapon" is a misnomer - the weapons themselves are defined by Title II of the NFA of 1934.

Even "NFA weapon" is improperly used. Anything considered a "firearm" by federal law is a weapon defined by the NFA - Title I or Title II. All your firearms that are centerfire or rimfire are NFA weapons, unless they were manufactured before 1898.

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Federal language calls it a "silencer or muffler."

Silencer is legally right, factually wrong.

Just like we all own a bunch of "assault weapons" as defined by federal law - yet few of us have ever been assaulted by our rifles.

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I do understand all the title 2 class 3 SOT and silencer crap. I think when most people use the word suppressor and especially when they correct someone calling it a silencer (which I think is a more legally correct term), they always sound like a total wannabe operator. Like they play call of duty and see them selves as being paramilitary or something since they have all the best gear that gets replaced if it so much as gets a loose thread and they always sound like douchbags kind of like some people in this thread.

 

Shandlanous thanks and your post should has been what beefcakes looked like instead of calling everyone idiots when in fact he was using a widely used term in the industry and acceptable as correct, even though you think it's a term that doesn't make sense it actually does and shandlanous made that fact clear.

 

Im am a total ass hole as well beefcake but not some much as to come into a thread call everyone idiots and have nothing backing up my claim or even making a valid argument as to why they are idiots. And I'm not saying some here are not idiots they are some, like those trying to convince people that you give up your rights to own a TITLE 2 firearm sold by a FFL type 7 that also has a type 3 SPECIAL OCCUPATIONAL TAX PAYER (AKA Class three dealer) and those people saying that if you have and SOT you give up rights to having your house searched by the ATF.

 

If you deal in machine guns or any guns for that matter you DO NOT give up the rights to have your house searched without warrant, in fact they can inspect you but they can't even do that more than the alloted times per year. And they can not go to your home without a really good reason, a reason good enough to get them a warrant, unless that is your place of business

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Hey, you can call me a dbag too...but that may turn me into a grammar nazi as well naaaa.gif


I am almost certain the ONLY thing that is actually class 3 is a tax stamp...maybe someone who pays the tax could tell us. My apologies for name calling :wet_eyes:

Edited by beefcakeb0
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http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIF1.html

 

I think we all know this, but a Class 3 is actually the SOT the dealer must possess for these firearms. It has entered the general vernacular of gun people to call all NFA weapons (which require a Class 3 SOT to deal them) to call the Class 3 weapons. However, Beefcake is right, these are NFA weapons/Title II weapons. They are called "title II" firearms because they fall under different titles of the law (i.e., books of law in the United States Code (USC)).

 

Here's the important quote:

 

There are two kinds of firearms under U.S. (federal) law,
title 1 firearms and title 2. Title 1 firearms are long guns
(rifles and shotguns), handguns, firearm frames or receivers, and
most NFA weapons are also title 1 firearms. Title 2 weapons are
NFA weapons. Title 2 of the 1968 Gun Control Act is the National
Firearms Act (26 USC sec. 5801 et seq.), hence NFA. Title 1 is
generally called the Gun Control Act, (18 USC sec. 921 et seq.).
NFA weapons are sometimes called class 3 weapons, because a class
3 SOT (see below) is needed to deal in NFA weapons.

 

So, although I believe we all understood this, at least in general form, at the outset, there is the info requested.

 

EDIT: and YES, silencers and other non-weapons are classed as weapons under TITLE II.

Edited by Remek
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All this silencer/suppressor talk made me wonder again--is it possible to sbr a 7.62x39, put a silencer on it, and run subsonic ammo? I should research more i know but what little ive found seems to be a resounding no.

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All this silencer/suppressor talk made me wonder again--is it possible to sbr a 7.62x39, put a silencer on it, and run subsonic ammo? I should research more i know but what little ive found seems to be a resounding no.

Sure, it's possible - but pretty pointless. Since an AK has an open gas system, you'd still be blowing plenty of noisy gas out, not to mention the AK has a pretty loud action.

 

You could tune the gas system to run subsonic rounds, and you could run a can, and you could still have a noisy-ass gun.

It could make sense I guess, if you built an SBR with a Yugo gas block with a shut-off valve - that way, you could turn it into a straight-pull bolt action and run subsonic rounds. I have seen a Yugo with a can before, full-sized, not an SBR, and it was comparable to an AR in terms of sound, when fired with normal ammo with the gas system shut off.

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Question: silenced 5.56/x39, whatever. How much silencing do you get? It seems to me not much, and if you really are using it to be stealth, and arent worrying about killing large animals, a .22 might be best for me to silence.

 

I guess better questions: can you skip ear protection with supersonic rounds? Is .22lr subsonic as much a mere "click" as i am lead to believe on youtube?

 

Just trying to figure if i want to consider this option more.

Edited by Remek
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In my mind, the silencing factor would simply be no bleeding eardrums if i had to use said weapon indoors lol... and preferably no ringing...a man can dream i spose...

 

What about something like the vityaz 9mm(saiga 9 we are all hoping for)? Would that lend itself better to the task even if in an ak format?

Edited by LuPiN8oR
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Question: silenced 5.56/x39, whatever. How much silencing do you get? It seems to me not much, and if you really are using it to be stealth, and arent worrying about killing large animals, a .22 might be best for me to silence.

 

I guess better questions: can you skip ear protection with supersonic rounds? Is .22lr subsonic as much a mere "click" as i am lead to believe on youtube?

 

Just trying to figure if i want to consider this option more.

There are a lot of factors involved. There are three primary ways in which firing a weapon generates noise:

 

  • The sound of the action (firing mechanism, weapon cycling, etc.)
  • The sound of the exploding powder
  • The sound of a sonic boom when a supersonic round is fired (avoided by using subsonic loads)

The only thing the suppressor affects is the sound of the exploding powder. If your firearm has a noisy action or you use supersonic ammunition, there will still be a fair amount of noise. .22LR is a great round to suppress. The sound of the supersonic crack is actually pretty damaging to hearing. I wouldn't call any supersonic round hearing safe. A suppressed AR-15 or AK firing supersonic rounds, even suppressed, will generate more sound than is safe without hearing protection. The action of many .45-caliber pistols cycling can damage your hearing, even with a good can eliminating the sound of expanding powder gases.

 

I've fired many suppressed weapons - a 1911 or a Sig P220 with a can still generates a damaging level of sound - but it is still a hell of a lot better than without a can, and the sound is not audible for nearly as far.

 

A suppressed bolt-action rifle with subsonic ammunition is going to be about as quiet as it gets. I have a savage bolt-action rifle in .22. When fired with subsonic ammunition, I hear only two sounds - the sound of the firing pin striking the rim, and the sound of the bullet hitting the backstop if I'm close enough to it.

 

The P22 is also a great platform for a suppressor - definitely hearing safe with subsonic ammunition.

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In my mind, the silencing factor would simply be no bleeding eardrums if i had to use said weapon indoors lol... a man can dream i spose...

Hey, it definitely helps! The AK just isn't an ideal platform. Really, if you're going to go with a subsonic round and a can for home defense, I'd go with a pistol in 9mm or .45. Since you're already bringing the round down to subsonic speeds, it makes sense to go for the biggest energy deposit you can get - since you're not talking about a long-range shot, the better ballistic coefficient of a conical bullet doesn't really factor in to the decision - you just want more weight. You could easily load a 147-grain subsonic 7.62x39 - or you could load a 147-grain subsonic 9x19, or even 158-grain - and if they're both going about 1050 FPS, you're going to end up with about the same energy deposit. Why not load a 200- or 230-grain .45 auto? A bigger chunk of copper and lead is going to deliver more stopping power, and with a hollow point pistol bullet, it seems there's also less risk of overpenetration.

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Lupin08r look at the blackout. You can have a SBR ar15 run a silencer and use both subs and super sonic ammo with no tuning the gas in-between. And yes it's very quite. Shandlanous the new silencers in .45 the AAC Tirant and silencerco osprey are the only .45 can you can get that are hearing safe dry and in years past .45 can have sucked.

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The Ak can be suppressed, "silenced", same as the AR. The can does not stop the bullet from breaking the sound barrier, it muffles the boom of the gun, it ALSO makes it almost impossible to actually tell from where the sound of the bullet came from, unless of course, you are standing beside it. I shoot my Ruger 10/22 all the time of the back deck, along with a bunch of other .22's that I have, and my wife has been in the front yard, and says it's not even as loud as my pellet gun, BUT, I am shooting standard velocity rounds, about 1050 fps, I also shoot the .223 from the deck, and all the neighbors say is that it sounds like I'm shooting a standard .22.

I have shot a suppressed AK, with standard ammo, and all you get is the "crack" of the bullet, and they can be shot without hearing protection, it's actually quite pleasant to shoot any gun with a can, you can shoot and still talk with anyone near you. I shoot all my 9mm's with my can and with 147gr ammo, you can hear the bullet thump the target. You'll also have to remember that on most cans, you'll get a first round pop, everything after that is a thump on the target, or the critter that just got plugged. :)

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Of course you can put a silencer on an ak. But the same reason everyone says makes the ak better (looser fitting) makes it a less than good silenced gun. An ar15 is tight and has little room for gas to expand so it makes or a much better platform.

 

And the blackout isn't pricy just build one the only different part than a 556 is the barrel. It's the same mags and same bolt all you do is change a barrel. In fact it's the cheapest round other than 556 to get in to. If you already own and AR like all red blooded American gun owners should, all you need is to buy an upper. You don't even need a new bolt you can use the same bolt and mags.

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All this silencer/suppressor talk made me wonder again--is it possible to sbr a 7.62x39, put a silencer on it, and run subsonic ammo? I should research more i know but what little ive found seems to be a resounding no.

 

To me stealth is not important. Hear is how I look at the values involved.

 

The primary value of a supressor is convenience and courtesy.

 

Convenience: Think of the typical pest control situation. It is 4 am and the raccoon are tearing up the trash and garden. You have just enough time to grab either a gun or earpro before they scurry off. (or coyote is trying to eat your cat, or wild hogs, prarie dogs, or starlings, rabbits stripping bark in your orchard, etc.) You can have the gun ready to hand and blast away. It might not be totally hearing safe, but it beats missing the chance to take the shot, or shooting with an suppressed rifle.

 

Courtesy: Less noise for neighbors, no startling people in the middle of the night, less obnoxious at the range.

 

Cool:

 

Because I can, so F.U. (AKA, exercising freedoms helps to preserve them):

 

Stealth:

 

Investment: A grandfathered No name .22lr can worth $200 could be worth thousands some day if new civilian manufacture is banned.

 

Wrap up-

 

It makes use at the range more pleasant too, as it works as a compensator, and reduces the noise.

 

I plan to get at least two suppressors when I am able. I thinkt he first is probably going to be a .308 rated can which will live on a 300 AAC chambered Tavor, and shoot cheap cast bullets with excellent ballistics, and available components.

 

The next will be a 9mm can that I can also shoot sub cal with my .22lr pistol.

 

The third will be a .22LR dedicated can. Plans subject to change.

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GunFun,

 

Be careful shooting plain lead bullets thru a can. They will lead up, and it's a bitch to get out, if you don't/can't clean it, and I don't know of any .30 caliber cans that can be taken apart for cleaning, the .22's, yes, maybe there are some 9mm's out there, but I don't remember. I almost screwed the pooch on my YH 9mm Wraith can, shooting cheap lead bullets loaded subsonic. Now, the only thing that goes thru my cans, is FMJ. And like I said earlier, you don't have to wear hearing protection while shooting, not unless you just want to. You can load .30 caliber rounds with Trail Boss and get subsonic rounds, as well as for the .223.

If you're going to go with a .30 caliber can, look at the Yankee Hill QD can, it comes with the flash hider for the .30 gun and you can also buy a flash hider that is threaded 1/2x28 to use it on the .223. They designed it this way, just for that.

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I've been considering doing an SS K-baffle one on a form 1. And pretty much all can be dumped in an ultrasonic bath, which I want to buy sooner or later anyway.

 

I will likely be doing poly coated lead for this purpose which seems to be about as clean or better than jacketed anyway. People seem to be getting good results loading heavy 300 BO bullets subsonic with pistol powders like red dot too.

 

At any rate, I have at least a year to figure out what I want before I have the income to fund the purchases.

 

I know I really liked the 300 BO can I got to try on an AR.

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What mold are you using fr the blackout? The only bullet I saw from lee that I liked was the one that's made for 7.62x39mm and I don't know how sizing it down from .312 to .309 would work out.

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