Red Star 38 Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 Hey all, I am one of the unfortunates who had the tap break when i was threading the hole for the bullet guide. I am thinking about welding the BG in place, and was wondering if anyone else here has welded their BG in place. If you have, how did you do it? what kind of weld did you use (tig, mig, etc...) and how did it turn out for you? was there lots of splatter that you had to watch out for, was there a lot of cleanup involved? Pics would also be greatly appreciated Thanks again all, Red. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 If you can weld, why not just make a new bullet guide and move the location the threading/tapping happens at? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JoeAK 337 Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 Is the tap still in the trunnion? If it is, you might be able to break it out with a center punch, then grind the end of the rest of the tap and try again. That's what I did. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) If you weld useTIG, ER70s be certain to clean all the paint from the area, and flush it with acetone, or you'll be fighting pin holes forever. You won't be able to see what your doing if you try MIG, there will be splatter with mig, and the mig wire is likely to push the BG out of place before it ties in Edited June 3, 2013 by poolingmyignorance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted June 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 thanks for the input guys A couple of things i didnt mention: NailBomb, I cant weld I will be getting one of my friends to help me with it. My soft, capitalist hands are not very good with this kind of thing... Joe, Yeah, a small portion of the tap is still in the trunion. I tried smacking it out, but its in there forever. I managed to make if flush to the trunion, but that's about it... I could always try and drill it out with a hardcore drill bit and try again, but that's a plan B for me at the moment. I still think welding it would be best... Pooling, thanks for the welding info! I'm pretty sure my buddy has a mig welder, and to combat the splatter, we were thinking of building up a dam with welding putty or playdoh to limit the splatter and make sure it doesnt go anywhere important. Would it be a good idea to perhaps JB weld the BG in place (I have a flat trunion) to make sure it doesn't move, then weld the edges? thanks again for all the info guys, i really appreciate it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 Problem with Mig is the nozzle is so big you'll be working completely blind. If you ark to a machine surface or get splatter in your chamber your gun is trash. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BigChongus 765 Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 I would try drilling it out and tapping it with the next size up before welding. If it works, great. If not, proceed with welding. You can't go backwards once you weld it in. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 Not really a job I would recommend your average welder take on to begin with, let alone with a MIG. Its the wrong process for work like this. Especially trying to do a rosette weld in that area I wonder if you'll have issues without opening up the bullet guide for a proper rosette weld. Just my humble opinion. You would be better off taking the advice given and trying to go to the next size up. In the event that doesn't work, your going to want to find someone to TIG(GTAW) weld the trunnion to repair the hole and start again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sdustin 578 Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 I would weld as a very last option. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) Not really a job I would recommend your average welder take on to begin with, let alone with a MIG. Its the wrong process for work like this. Especially trying to do a rosette weld in that area I wonder if you'll have issues without opening up the bullet guide for a proper rosette weld. Just my humble opinion. You would be better off taking the advice given and trying to go to the next size up. In the event that doesn't work, your going to want to find someone to TIG(GTAW) weld the trunnion to repair the hole and start again. It takes some skill, and the right tig cup size to get in there and see what your doing. Plus unless your really good an electronic hood is going to be necessary to get your ark started in the right place. Once perfected however it is superior to other processes. Much faster and stronger. **Important** If you weld, you'll still have to chisel enough of the broken tap out so that your weld can tie into the trunion and not the tap. The tap material is extremely brittle, as you know, and welding to it will make it even more so, and your weld will be likely to fail. Edited June 4, 2013 by poolingmyignorance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
canoecanoe 63 Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 The taps are brittle. I broke one recently and thought I was screwed. I had nothing to lose, so I beat the crap out of it with the smallest nail punch I had. the tap shattered and the pieces fell out. I had another tap of the same size and was able to salvage the hole and get it threaded. The moral of this story is that you should try every thing to get the broken tap out. In the worst case after trying this, you can still try the weld. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted June 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 awesome advice, thanks guys! In talking to the guy that was going to help me weld, found out that he only welds to do sculptures and is quite a novice at it. I will try smashing that bastard tap out of there. If things go well, it sounds like i might be able to salvage the hole. but if not i will just drill another and re-tap. thanks again for all the input lads, its much apreciated 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan16 971 Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Have you thought about using two picks to un-thread the broken tap? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted June 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Hey Jet, Yeah, i tried that... When the tap broke, it was wedged into the hole with about 2 or 3 millimeters protruding from the trunion. I tried to reverse it, but it didnt work. eventually, i took a chisel and smacked it so that it was at least level with the trunion. honestly, if they made saiga specific magazines for 5.45 i would just get those. I've even considered modifying magazines to have the integral bullet guide, just like saiga specific magazines. I was also thinking about riveting the BG in place, but that seems even less likely without completely removing the receiver. any rate, Thanks again all! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cguiro 29 Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Why not just drill another hole in the bullet guide and try in another spot Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 It may be frustrating now, but you'll be happier once its done. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan16 971 Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Hey Jet, Yeah, i tried that... When the tap broke, it was wedged into the hole with about 2 or 3 millimeters protruding from the trunion. I tried to reverse it, but it didnt work. eventually, i took a chisel and smacked it so that it was at least level with the trunion. honestly, if they made saiga specific magazines for 5.45 i would just get those. I've even considered modifying magazines to have the integral bullet guide, just like saiga specific magazines. I was also thinking about riveting the BG in place, but that seems even less likely without completely removing the receiver. any rate, Thanks again all! Most Tapco 5.45 mags work well with no bullet guide. Only problem I had was with using short hollow point Barnaul ammo.Last round didn't want to feed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted June 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 NailBomb, you're right. I really just want to get this rifle to the point that I can trust it completely. We have come a looooong way together, my brown rifle and I, and this is the very last little piece that needs to be taken care of. Jet, I have tried the normal tapcos using the 7n6, and i did have a hangup on the last round. Its interesting that the rest of the magazine fed properly, and the issue comes up on the last round... for an experiment, i think ill try and modify one of the tapcos to have the integral BG... working with polymer is far easier than steel. I will let you all know how that experiment goes... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebobrusso 27 Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 drill completely through tap/saiga trunion and put nut on other side of bolt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 drill completely through tap/saiga trunion and put nut on other side of bolt That might look a bit rough and be really hard to keep secure. Though there is some merit to you idea. Drill through tapping is always easier because the shavings cannot compress in the bottom of the hole. Most people tend to break taps because they don't have the tactile feel of when the tap is "bottomed out" in a hole. Drilling through prevents this. What size tap are you using, and what size drill, maybe you can simply go up one thread size up. Also be aware that spiral flute taps while designed primarily with a powered driver in mind, do have a unique advantage of pushing shavings OUT of a hole. They are however a little tougher to turn manually, and require more lubrication. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
adjc 171 Posted June 5, 2013 Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 drill the hole in your guide bigger to allow more weld to get to the trunion. i did this on a vepr after i broke a tap, couldn't get the broken tap out no matter what i tried. this has been done over 2 years ago and have had no problems. it used to bug me cause most folks do screw jobs on their builds....but i don't even think about it anymore, it is there to stay. make sure you use the right equipment and it'll be fine. i used a mig....worked for me. i can post a pic if needed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted June 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 adjc, yes please! I would like to see a pic of a welded guide. thanks for that sir Quote Link to post Share on other sites
adjc 171 Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 adjc, yes please! I would like to see a pic of a welded guide. thanks for that sir just got in from work. i'll try to get you one later tomorrow afternoon been a long day. i took a few pics last night with my phone and they weren't clear enuff to see the weld. i'll break out the cannon sure shot....pic will be much clearer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted June 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 awesome! thanks again Quote Link to post Share on other sites
semper299 284 Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Just my 2 cents, but it is surprising how hard you have to hit the broken tap to make it shatter. Get it out of there and go one size larger. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted June 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 Hey Semper, yeah, i beat the snot out of that tap. I thought i was going to do irreparable damage to the rifle, so i stopped. I am going to move forward with the magazine modification test as well. My plan is to sacrifice a tapco magazine and build up an integral BG just like the factory magazines have. I tested it last night with an old handguard i had lying around. it is polymer, so i cut a small section out of it then used a soldering iron to kind of 'weld' the plastic back together. It was surprisingly strong! I did break it though, but i had to exert quite a bit of force. the next step in this test is to drill some very small holes (1/16th diameter at the moment) into both pieces of polymer, then insert a short length of steel wire into those holes to act as a pin. I will glue the rods into place, then glue the plastic, then weld it. I think that this has a good chance of being strong enough... I will of course update you all as to its progress Quote Link to post Share on other sites
adjc 171 Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) red star...here's a few photo's. this will give you some sort of an idea of what a welded guide looks like. as said before this has been done over two yrs ago with many rounds thru it and still solid as day one. you can see that heat penetration went thru just fine. good luck with whatever method you take. Edited June 6, 2013 by adjc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LuPiN8oR 333 Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 The bullet guide issue is gonna be a thorn in your side until its resolved. I would suggest a local gunsmith to do it if you feel like there are no other options to deal with it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Star 38 Posted June 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 adjc, those are fantastic! thanks very much for taking the time to get those i will show those pics to my buddy that welds and see what he says. thanks again! Red. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
adjc 171 Posted June 6, 2013 Report Share Posted June 6, 2013 here's a pic of the rifle with the welded guide......getting ready to see a Bonesteel folder soon. adjc, those are fantastic! thanks very much for taking the time to get those i will show those pics to my buddy that welds and see what he says. thanks again! Red. your welcome....no problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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