Drums falling out of my Saiga.

[killoblivion 0]

I have an extended magazine release an if I fire rapid shots the drum will fall out after 3-5 shots. the magazine fits tight in the magwell and if I hold the magazine release back while I am shooting it stays in. I dont have any problems with box mags. Is the mag latch spring to weak? Do the make a stronger/upgrade. Thanks in advance.

[corbin 621]

Are you sure your index finger isn't bumping into it on rapid fire? I ended up doing that a couple times.

[Taive 0]

I have the same problem with promag drums only I have worried my self to death trying to figure it out but I can't neither

[killoblivion 0]

I am pretty sure my finger isn't bumping it, but I will double check when I shoot it next.

[travistp 63]

I thought drums do not work with magwells?

[gunfun 3,931]

It could be a result of the A or B fitting being too tight, such that the catch is only partly engaging the tab. have you confirmed angle of how far the tab goes forward?

 

Google "MD arms MD 20 drum fitting" for clarification. NVM The right way to fit your drum! - MDARMS.com - forum.Saiga-12.com

[travistp 63]

Md arms main site has a youtube video on how to do it. I hardly took any off and its snug. Never had a mag fall out ever. But promag sticks suck just to throw that out there

[Nephilim7 107]

Seems I remember reading that the added mass of the extended release lever causes the lever to release under recoil. I would suggest upgrading the catch spring (no idea where to get one) or remove the extended lever. The drum is heavy enough to fall free and unfortunately, the recoil impulse is working to release the catch and pivot the mag about it's front beak. You need to get that fixed for any sort of reliability.

 

Would be a neat trick to tune it to run light loads reliably and through a heavy load in for the last shot. Automatic empty mag ejection!

 

I have been thinking of riveting a 1.5 straight tab onto the mag release. I think aluminum or nylon is the way to go on these, but steel may work. This would make the standard AK speed reload with the front of the new mag slapping the release go much better. There are youtube videos on this technique. The S12 release is not very conducive to this as is, so it needs a little help.

 

As an aside: HURRY UP ON RELEASING YOUR LRBHO COBRA76!!! I NEED it...

[scotheocelot 28]

I actually had this same issue the last time I hit the range. I have a JT Engineering extended release. My question to the theory of the extended mag release causing the issue is this... How much difference is there between the length of the JT catch vs. OEM? It is pretty rudimentary (small flat steel w/spring). Basically the JT Engineering release looks like the oem but with a tab welded on that allows your trigger finger to release the mag. I don't see how it is the cause of the problem.

 

I made sure after the first time it happened that I stayed away from the release with my finger. It happened once again during rapid fire. I notified LSA but it is hard to say if it is the release or the Pro Mag. I did not take any material off my drums since they snapped into the receiver nicely out of the box. It is bothering me though. If anyone has pictures of back to back JT Engineering vs OEM release inside the receiver it may help the discussion.

[Nephilim7 107]

I don't think we have been told if the release catch is a JTE or RAM or homemade model...

 

Both the RAM and JTE extended catches have about three times the metal beyond the pivot pin than the factory part. Means much higher forces due to higher inertia and longer leverage from the pivot. They also change the direction of recoil forces acting on the lever. The factory lever is nearly vertical, whereas these two are horizontal. Recoil impulse may act on the lever even more due to the lever angle with respect to the gun. I would imagine the longer acting component of recoil is the vertical, since the instant impulse into the shoulder is quickly absorbed. The inertia and spring tension of the lever are "slow" to overcome, but the vertical component is "slow" as well. Picture smacking a 100 pound steel ball with a sledge hammer as hard as you can. Not much happens. Then picture pushing against it for five seconds with your finger tips. It moves easily.

 

I'm sure I am WAAAAAAY overthinking this...

[scotheocelot 28]

Neph,

 

So you are saying that when the magazine is locked into place, the JTE/RAM tab sits at an angle against the magazine tab where the OEM would be vertical to the tab? I wasn't aware of this. Why would someone design it not to fit as the oem as far as the catch length goes? Everything JTE makes is supposed to "improve" the function. However, if indeed lengths are different and the extended magazine release doesn't fit like oem, JTE or Carolina Shooters Supply should have addressed this in the video. They make it sound like it is a direct replacement. I feel I just paid $30 to make my gun LESS reliable?! WTH?

[Nephilim7 107]

Wrong end. The problem is the extended part you push with your finger. I was referring to that part of the lever. The finger end has a lot of material that is in line with the horizon when the weapon is shouldered. The OEM lever (finger end) is much more upright and has less material to "flop around" and release the mag. Reread my previous post with that in mind. It should make more sense.

 

I am not knocking the product at all. They seem well made to me. Nearly bought one myself. I am simply gaming ideas that may explain the retention failures.

 

Since you mentioned the magazine end of the release extension, I will mention that I have heard that at least one of those two (RAM, I believe) is designed to be longer than the OEM part. The retention tab is expected to be filed down to a custom fit (a really great idea!).

[SGL 530]

I am simply gaming ideas that may explain the retention failures.

 

 

Well put.

[jdtravers 637]

Neph,

 

So you are saying that when the magazine is locked into place, the JTE/RAM tab sits at an angle against the magazine tab where the OEM would be vertical to the tab? I wasn't aware of this. Why would someone design it not to fit as the oem as far as the catch length goes? Everything JTE makes is supposed to "improve" the function. However, if indeed lengths are different and the extended magazine release doesn't fit like oem, JTE or Carolina Shooters Supply should have addressed this in the video. They make it sound like it is a direct replacement. I feel I just paid $30 to make my gun LESS reliable?! WTH?

 

I don't think we have been told if the release catch is a JTE or RAM or homemade model...

 

Both the RAM and JTE extended catches have about three times the metal beyond the pivot pin than the factory part. Means much higher forces due to higher inertia and longer leverage from the pivot. They also change the direction of recoil forces acting on the lever. The factory lever is nearly vertical, whereas these two are horizontal. Recoil impulse may act on the lever even more due to the lever angle with respect to the gun. I would imagine the longer acting component of recoil is the vertical, since the instant impulse into the shoulder is quickly absorbed. The inertia and spring tension of the lever are "slow" to overcome, but the vertical component is "slow" as well. Picture smacking a 100 pound steel ball with a sledge hammer as hard as you can. Not much happens. Then picture pushing against it for five seconds with your finger tips. It moves easily.

 

I'm sure I am WAAAAAAY overthinking this...

 

Be careful and use a little discretion when you take advice on a public forum. The majority of the people posting really do not have the experience or knowledge to give advice. Building one or two shotguns does not make them an expert!!!

 

The JTE Extended Magazine Release was/is exactly the same dimension as the stock release. Three times the materiel????? You gotta be kidding!!!!!

 

There are literally hundreds of the releases out there with no problems. There is not enough materiel with the extension to cause an inertia/release problem. This was field tested for months and thousands of shells before final design and production.

 

Common sense would dicate, if both magazines and drums were falling out of the gun, then there would be a problem with too much length on the release, but if only the drum is falling out, then you have not fit the drum properly.

 

Also if anyone has a problem or a question about a product, common courtesy would dictate that you contact the manufactuer or the distributor. I stand behind all my products 100%.

 

Regards,

 

Jack Travers

JT Engineering

[travistp 63]

 

Neph,

 

So you are saying that when the magazine is locked into place, the JTE/RAM tab sits at an angle against the magazine tab where the OEM would be vertical to the tab? I wasn't aware of this. Why would someone design it not to fit as the oem as far as the catch length goes? Everything JTE makes is supposed to "improve" the function. However, if indeed lengths are different and the extended magazine release doesn't fit like oem, JTE or Carolina Shooters Supply should have addressed this in the video. They make it sound like it is a direct replacement. I feel I just paid $30 to make my gun LESS reliable?! WTH?

 

I don't think we have been told if the release catch is a JTE or RAM or homemade model...

 

Both the RAM and JTE extended catches have about three times the metal beyond the pivot pin than the factory part. Means much higher forces due to higher inertia and longer leverage from the pivot. They also change the direction of recoil forces acting on the lever. The factory lever is nearly vertical, whereas these two are horizontal. Recoil impulse may act on the lever even more due to the lever angle with respect to the gun. I would imagine the longer acting component of recoil is the vertical, since the instant impulse into the shoulder is quickly absorbed. The inertia and spring tension of the lever are "slow" to overcome, but the vertical component is "slow" as well. Picture smacking a 100 pound steel ball with a sledge hammer as hard as you can. Not much happens. Then picture pushing against it for five seconds with your finger tips. It moves easily.

 

I'm sure I am WAAAAAAY overthinking this...

 

Be careful and use a little discretion when you take advice on a public forum. The majority of the people posting really do not have the experience or knowledge to give advice. Building one or two shotguns does not make them an expert!!!

 

The JTE Extended Magazine Release was/is exactly the same dimension as the stock release. Three times the materiel????? You gotta be kidding!!!!!

 

There are literally hundreds of the releases out there with no problems. There is not enough materiel with the extension to cause an inertia/release problem. This was field tested for months and thousands of shells before final design and production.

 

Common sense would dicate, if both magazines and drums were falling out of the gun, then there would be a problem with too much length on the release, but if only the drum is falling out, then you have not fit the drum properly.

 

Also if you have a problem or a question about a product, common courtesy would dictate that you contact the manufactuer or the distributor. I stand behind all my products 100%.

 

Regards,

 

Jack Travers

JT Engineering

 

SOMMEEBOODDYY Just laid out some spankys!!! haha

[jdtravers 637]

Also of note, it is rare, but every now and then I have run into a shotgun that the pin/hole location of the trunnion/magazine tower is a little out of spec and the JTE Extended Magazine Release would require minor fitting.

 

The release was not allowed to go out far enough and minor materiel at the stop would/will have to be removed. I believe I have seen this twice in the last 4-5 years.

 

If anyone has a question in this regard, please do not hesitate to call me.

 

I hate disinformation being put out on a public forum about one of my products, as do the rest of the vendors on this forum.

 

Regards,

 

Jack

337 353-3534

[scotheocelot 28]

^^

Thanks for posting Jack. I messaged LSA earlier to let hem know I personally looked at a friends untouched Saiga 12 after work. Your release is the same length as the oem piece give or take a mm. Mine even sits at roughly the same angle when locked in. As I thought you designed it as the oem on the magazine catch side. Since I never took note of the angle of the oem I didn't have a reference.

 

I plan to label and test all drums next range trip. All appear the same as far as the angle of the release once locked. It matches the SGM magazine as well. I still lean towards he Promag drum itself being the culprit.

Edited June 5, 2013 by scotheocelot

[jdtravers 637]

Pull your carrier out of the shotgun when you fit the drums, you will be able to see the mag catch engagement and if the mag catch is completely engaging the tab on the drum.

 

Jack

[Nephilim7 107]

OP: Do me a favor and tie loaded drums to your stick mags and test. My "common sense dictates" that drums may fall free of a slip-fit mag well more easily because of a greater force due to gravity as a result of their greater mass. So, make a stick mag weigh the same as a drum and test, just to eliminate that possibility.

 

Jack: No disrespect intended at all. I am certainly no expert, and I clearly stated in my posts that I was not knocking either of the products I mentioned. I also know what I see. From pictures and video, there seems to be around twice (estimating) as much total material on your lever as the OEM part. Roughly same dimensions, but with an added finger extension. The RAM lever seems to have a bit more (I estimate three times the OEM part). I also made it clear that what I posted was based on what I had read from others and what I could imagine. I was quite explicit. I certainly do not think there is anything wrong with your products. I love my JTE performance guide rod. You guys know your stuff. Thanks for posting!

[Beretty 37]

I have had the similar problems with my Promag 20 drum. With hotter loads the drum ejects. I have the RAM extended release. It fires up to about 1400 fps ,with anything hotter, I have issues. Should the MD video be considered for Promag drums?

[killoblivion 0]

OK, here is an update. Some things I checked were:

Finger hitting the mag release - Negative

Mag release fully engaged - Yes

12rd through 5rd box magazines never fall out.

20rd, 15rd, 12rd drums fall out only with rapid fire even with low powered birdshot.

Also the drums fit in the magwell tight as a drum (excuse the pun) and the mag release tab is fully seated with plenty of material that it would have to slide about 4mm to drop drum.

Is it possible that the increased weight of the drums is causing the drums to "work" their way out?

[bahamasair666 1]

Why not wedge something behind the mag release so it can't move to release the drum then try a high speed mag dump. That would tell you,if it's the mag release moving or something else going on. You might just have a weaker than normal spring.

[Nephilim7 107]

12rd through 5rd box magazines never fall out.

20rd, 15rd, 12rd drums fall out only with rapid fire even with low powered birdshot.

Don't suppose you loaded up a 15 round drum and duct taped it to a stick mag to see if you can duplicate the failure???

 

Also, separately try zip-tying a block of foam or wood in place behind the latch to physically block the latch while rapid-firing drums.

 

Let us know when you find anything new. Good luck!

[MegamanX 65]

I've only had this issue with those metal alliance armament drums.

[scotheocelot 28]

I have mine labeled A, B & C now. I took A & B out with me this weekend. Put about 60 rounds through each A & B without any falling. When I take C with me next time I will post up the results. My "C" drum has the smallest lip where the mag release catches. Unfortunately I don't see any fix other than sending it back to ProMag if indeed it falls out.

 

BTW - All my drums are the 12 rds which I have read to be the most reliable of the ProMag drums.

[SICARIO 26]

I had this issue with an S12 I worked on a while ago. It would pop out after 1-3 rnds from a fully loaded drum. It was a RAM Ambi Mag release. This was surprising since I've installed many Ambi Mag releases and fit many drums. The main moving target I've seen when it comes to Saigas is the rifle themselves, tons of variability. Ultimately the mag catch wasn't engaging the drum enough due to the magwell being slightly longer than normal. The fix, remove a bit of material from the back of the mag catch to allow it to travel farther forward, problem solved.

[gunfun 3,931]

I had this issue with an S12 I worked on a while ago. It would pop out after 1-3 rnds from a fully loaded drum. It was a RAM Ambi Mag release. This was surprising since I've installed many Ambi Mag releases and fit many drums. The main moving target I've seen when it comes to Saigas is the rifle themselves, tons of variability. Ultimately the mag catch wasn't engaging the drum enough due to the magwell being slightly longer than normal. The fix, remove a bit of material from the back of the mag catch to allow it to travel farther forward, problem solved.

 

That might explain my cousin't gun.

[Kaelic 7]

Have we figured out a solution to this problem? I have a RAM mag release and it functions fine with stick mags but drops the 12 round drum after 1-3 rounds even after taking some material off the back and bending the spring to increase tension. Does anyone have any ideas of a solution?

[pedal2alloy 206]

Assuming that the mag latch is engaging, and the front tab of the mag is hooked into receiver, there would have to be front-to-back movement of the mag in the mag opening of the receiver for it to unhook from either of those.  You have to eliminate that.  I would add material to the back of the mag, or some metal to the back of the mag opening of the receiver to keep the mag forward.

[drkstrw 15]

I had this issue with my Saiga 12. Turned out the spring was just a little weak and i got a replacement from CSS. The catch would walk its way forward under the recoil after about 12 or 13 shots it would cause the drum to fall out. http://www.carolinashooterssupply.com/product_p/css-s12-release-spring.htm is the replacement spring.