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Saigas VS Akdals at Ironman (Saiga 4 - Akdal 0)


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#1 R & R Targets

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:52 PM

This post is based solely on my observations at the Ironman 3 gun match this past weekend in Parma, Idaho.  I was on Squad 3 with a great bunch of guys, many shooting Open or Trooper both of which can use box fed shotguns.  The shotguns included 3 R&R Open Saigas (one of which was my backup R&R), 2 converted Saigas, 1 heavily modified Akdal and a stock Akdal.  

 

On the first stage the the modified Akdal would not feed after repeated attempts.  It was put to rest after the second stage and the shooter finished the match with my R&R Open Saiga backup gun.  The stock Akdal worked intermittently most of the match and then broke the feed ramp and was declared dead by the shooter who had to finish the match with borrowed shotguns.  

 

All five of the Saigas finished the match intact and with very little problems.  The guy who borrowed my R&R had some problems with ammo, but fixed the problem when I gave him some of my Winchester AA SuperSports to use.  

 

On a side note, another heavily modified Akdal at the match suffered a catastrophic failure when the lower frame attach points sheared off.  

 

My point is don't write off the Saiga yet because I think we are going to see a lot of busted Akdals as they get more use.

 

Below is a shot of me getting ready for Stage 9, the surprise stage.  I had to carry all three guns to start and all my ammo, which was a lot!  On board, slung rifle, holstered Open pistol, R&R Saiga in hand, 56 rounds of shotgun ammo, 90 rounds of rifle ammo and 81 rounds of pistol ammo!

 

I finished 9th in Open out of about 60 competitors. 

 

Doug

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#2 Captain Hero

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:20 PM

Damn. That sucks. Id never write off a Saiga or a Vepr in competition, but its hard to say if the bugs are worked out in the Akdal or not.


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Captain hero u always have a slutty avatar, u don't get laid do u u fat fuckin retard. Serve ur fucking country and suck a dick.


#3 Alaskapopo

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 04:34 PM

I think the Saiga from R&R has another huge advantage as well. Far less recoil. I fired my friends Firebird AKDAL with the same ammo as my Saiga and his kicked like my Tac Optics Benelli. The Saiga from R&R is far flatter and softer shooting. Congrats on the placement that is impressive.
Pat


Edited by Alaskapopo, 05 June 2013 - 04:35 PM.


#4 GunFun

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 04:52 PM

Was that one comped? I imagine that would make a big difference.



#5 Alaskapopo

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 06:10 PM

Both are comped. The AKDAL has an end of barrel comp and my R&R has a mid barrel comp that is the major difference because shotguns don't have much gas pressure to work with so the comp further back does much better. But I have read that Firebird says a mid barrel comp won't work on the AKDAL due to the longer gas action.

Pat



#6 MT Predator

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:01 PM

Good shooting! LOL on the Hadji shottys! Glad I never dropped coin on one of those gems.
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#7 BlueOvalBruin

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:55 AM

The firebird akdal comes with a midbarrel comp, but only 1 vs the 2 on saigas.  I shoot with a few folks that had their midbarrel comps removed on their R&R's and the barrel holes welded up due to reliability issues.  No shotgun is foolproof, especially raceguns.  My saiga (although not an r&r) took repeated dumps on me at superstition this year.  Another buddy went with an R&R but without the comp and he loves that gun.  All the R&R saigas and FB akdals looked pretty good to me at superstition.



#8 GunFun

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:46 PM

The firebird akdal comes with a midbarrel comp, but only 1 vs the 2 on saigas.  I shoot with a few folks that had their midbarrel comps removed on their R&R's and the barrel holes welded up due to reliability issues.  No shotgun is foolproof, especially raceguns.  My saiga (although not an r&r) took repeated dumps on me at superstition this year.  Another buddy went with an R&R but without the comp and he loves that gun.  All the R&R saigas and FB akdals looked pretty good to me at superstition.

 

Sounds balanced. What kind of problems did you experience?



#9 Alaskapopo

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 03:42 PM

We just got done with the 2nd Annual Birchwood Three gun Champion Ship up here. There were 4 R&R Saigas and 3 Firebird AKDALS and 1 Remington 1100 with a Xrail on it. The Saigas and the AKDALS ran fine. The Xrail was a jamamatic. The only stage it worked on was the aeral clay stage where the gun was held up pointing skyward most of the stage. I think he has a magazine spring issue. 
I got 3rd in open mostly because I bombed a rifle stage where we had to shoot at clay targets. Never use clays for rifle or pistol targets anyway. 

Here are the videos. 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JSk2AYeDRew

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=6tYej2tb770



#10 BlueOvalBruin

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:15 PM

 

The firebird akdal comes with a midbarrel comp, but only 1 vs the 2 on saigas.  I shoot with a few folks that had their midbarrel comps removed on their R&R's and the barrel holes welded up due to reliability issues.  No shotgun is foolproof, especially raceguns.  My saiga (although not an r&r) took repeated dumps on me at superstition this year.  Another buddy went with an R&R but without the comp and he loves that gun.  All the R&R saigas and FB akdals looked pretty good to me at superstition.

 

Sounds balanced. What kind of problems did you experience?

 

 

I had ~15 failures to eject (stovepipes) with all types of ammo and different power levels.  It didn't make a whole lot of sense because the gas ports were fine and the gun was clean.  Only 1 stage without problems.  Before that in previous matches I had about 1 FTF per ~75 rounds on average although those were easy to clear (just a nudge forward on the bolt handle).



#11 Alaskapopo

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:12 PM

have you tried replacing the recoil spring.

Pat



#12 BlueOvalBruin

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 02:29 PM

I dropped the front recoil spring down to a 12lb 1911 spring and liked how it shot but the infrequent FTF’s got a little more frequent so I went back to the stock recoil spring.  Since the bolt has been polished I don’t get the FTFs anymore so I might try the lighter spring again to get some more bolt speed and positive ejection.  The FTE's were with the stock recoil spring.



#13 R & R Targets

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 04:17 PM

I run a 16 lb 1911 spring on the front and find that if I get too light on the recoil spring I get FTFs and sometimes the bolt goes too fast and does not pick up the next round.  High bolt speed is not good, you need to have all the springs balanced and use the right ammo to have everything run right.  I like to run the stiffest spring that still lets the gun function.  That way the bolt is not too fast, I don't get FTFs and the magazine springs have time to get the next round up in position so I get proper feeding.  

 

Doug


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#14 BlueOvalBruin

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 07:57 PM

Definitely agree on balancing springs.  I have a bunch of 1911 springs to play with so I just need to see which one helps with the FTE's without introducing FTFs.  Doug are you using the stock gas plug?



#15 R & R Targets

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 04:53 PM

Definitely agree on balancing springs.  I have a bunch of 1911 springs to play with so I just need to see which one helps with the FTE's without introducing FTFs.  Doug are you using the stock gas plug?

I am using the standard plugs that came with the guns from Russia on both my Saigas.  I shoot my green gun (a newer R&R Open Saiga) on 1 and my old R&R Open Saiga (which was a prototype gun and has gone through all the changes and modifications over the last 5 years), on 2.

 

Doug 


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#16 GunFun

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:04 PM

What springs should be used to replicate factory spring rates?


With a progressive wolff spring or two if possible



#17 R & R Targets

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:45 PM

What springs should be used to replicate factory spring rates?


With a progressive wolff spring or two if possible

I have not used progressive springs on my Saiga, but I do have them on my STI Open pistol.  I don't know what the standard rate spring is on the Saiga but R&R always starts with a 16 lb on the guns.  Each gun may require different springs depending on how it functions when test fired. 

 

Doug


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#18 GunFun

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 02:35 PM

Thanks. Do you think that is lighter than factory?



#19 R & R Targets

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:03 PM

I would not be surprised if the factory used a stiffer spring since those guns are set up to run high brass ammo.  Springs are relatively cheap and I always end up with more than I need.  The gun will function and feel different with different springs, so buy a bunch and have some range fun!  Wolf sells calibration packs that have several different weight springs, you might take a look at these:

http://www.gunspring...1/mID1/dID1#799

 

Doug


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#20 GunFun

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 12:00 AM

That is kinda what I had in mind, but I wanted to start in the right neighborhood. I noticed that one of my s12's has a bit softer springs and that is the one I use with the drums. A little more snap on the return stroke might be a good thing.



#21 S12KS-K

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 05:44 PM

Looks like you cut the top off an SGM mag and put in a new/connected the springs and made a coupler for those 20 rounders?



#22 R & R Targets

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 11:04 PM

Looks like you cut the top off an SGM mag and put in a new/connected the springs and made a coupler for those 20 rounders?

Basically correct.  The springs are custom made for the 20 round mags.  Lots of trial and error before finding one that works consistently.

 

 

Doug


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#23 Dissident Arms

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:49 PM

I run a 16 lb 1911 spring on the front and find that if I get too light on the recoil spring I get FTFs and sometimes the bolt goes too fast and does not pick up the next round.  High bolt speed is not good, you need to have all the springs balanced and use the right ammo to have everything run right.  I like to run the stiffest spring that still lets the gun function.  That way the bolt is not too fast, I don't get FTFs and the magazine springs have time to get the next round up in position so I get proper feeding.  

 

Doug

Hello,

I have a new style R&R Open shotgun. Shotgun seems to run best with Win AA Supersport 1oz 1350 FPS.  The 16lb spring in came with was too week and had a lot of problems with the bolt not fully returning to battery. Also I experience a issue you describe above where the shell ejects perfectly, bolt returns but doesn't strip a shell from the mag.

So I have changed the front spring to 18.5lb. The bolt is retuning to battery nicely and shell still eject with out failures, but I still have the issue not stripping a shell a lot more often then I like.

I ordered a calibration set of Extra Power Wolff Springs to work through the problem. Do you think a 20lb will fix it or maybe you see another area I should look?

Thanks for any help.

Mike


Edited by mw900rr, 13 October 2013 - 08:39 PM.


#24 R & R Targets

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 09:33 AM

 

I run a 16 lb 1911 spring on the front and find that if I get too light on the recoil spring I get FTFs and sometimes the bolt goes too fast and does not pick up the next round.  High bolt speed is not good, you need to have all the springs balanced and use the right ammo to have everything run right.  I like to run the stiffest spring that still lets the gun function.  That way the bolt is not too fast, I don't get FTFs and the magazine springs have time to get the next round up in position so I get proper feeding.  

 

Doug

Hello,

I have a new style R&R Open shotgun. Shotgun seems to run best with Win AA Supersport 1oz 1350 FPS.  The 16lb spring in came with was too week and had a lot of problems with the bolt not fully returning to battery. Also I experience a issue you describe above where the shell ejects perfectly, bolt returns but doesn't strip a shell from the mag.

So I have changed the front spring to 18.5lb. The bolt is retuning to battery nicely and shell still eject with out failures, but I still have the issue not stripping a shell a lot more often then I like.

I ordered a calibration set of Extra Power Wolff Springs to work through the problem. Do you think a 20lb will fix it or maybe you see another area I should look?

Thanks for any help.

Mike

 

Sounds like you might need a slightly beefier recoil spring or more mag spring. The mags springs do get weak over time especially with the bigger mags.  Does the failure to strip problem happen with all your mags or just some?  12s or bigger mags?  Gas setting 1 or 2? You are using the right ammo, just need a little more tuning.  Feel free to PM me and I'll give you my phone number if you want to talk about it.

 

Doug


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#25 topmaul

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 12:14 PM

Doug how to the X-Rails stack up?


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#26 R & R Targets

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 01:00 PM

Doug how to the X-Rails stack up?


Incredible idea, but they seem to puke quite often. Some of their failure modes completely disable the gun. I wouldn't run one on a bet.

Doug

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