What do you do if you are sold a non 922r compliant Saiga from FFL?

[Tekilla 13]

First post on this board, as I just purchased a Saiga 12 on Saturday. I have been lurking for a week checking out the wealth of knowledge posted already.

 

I have been looking at 922r compliance and I understand that the chance of getting in trouble are slim to none. The Saiga I just purchased from an FFL was used and came with a Tapco adjustable stock a Tapco pistol grip that is connected to the stock and a Tapco forearm/hand guard. Those are the only 3 US parts on the shotgun. From what i read the fact that it has a pistol grip now means it needs to be compliant.

 

I would think that a store would be breaking the law selling it to me in that state. Has anyone come across this before and if so what are your thoughts for my options. My long term goal was to modify any Saiga I purchased which would require I be compliant, however i didn't plan on buying an non-compliant weapon.

 

Link to Stock/Pistol grip combo on S12

http://www.amazon.com/Tapco-Intrafuse-Stock-Black-STK07160/dp/B004YTWW7M/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372871354&sr=8-1&keywords=tapco+saiga+t6

[Matthew Hopkins 1,065]

well, if you have a US pistol grip and stock, and handguard then they had to change out the fire control group as well (3).

Edited July 3, 2013 by Matthew Hopkins

[Battosaii 99]

nope the link he posted was for the tapco stock and pistol grip for an unconverted saiga.

 

if i were you id just convert it that way your gun will be .922r compliant and the gun it self will feel better with a better trigger and the pistol grip in the right position.

[jerry52 893]

Time to have fun! Go for it!

[DLT 1,646]

If no hi cap magazine is inserted no problem with 922.

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

According to the atf, it's only an issue for the manufacture. Now if you change grips and such.(magazines) You must comply.

[jdub23 21]

I would probably ask a general question and not say I am in possession of the non compliant firearm on a public forum. Second I would not worry about it and get it done. But atleast you are interested in being legal...

Edited July 3, 2013 by jdub23

[Matthew Hopkins 1,065]

nope the link he posted was for the tapco stock and pistol grip for an unconverted saiga.

 

 

 

I believe that the picture he posted is what is on the gun now, he stated those are 2 of the 3 parts he has on the gun, the TAPCO forearm would be the 3rd.

 

unless, I'm reading him wrong and he bought a unconverted SAIGA and those 3 parts came as additional items not attached to the gun, then there is no issue, he didn't buy a "non-compliant" gun.

 

did a US mag came with it?

Edited July 3, 2013 by Matthew Hopkins

[wasrNwarpaint 184]

I would think that a store would be breaking the law selling it to me in that state.

 

its not illegal to sell or buy an out of compliance weapon

[Tekilla 13]

Thanks for the feedback so far, just to clarify the FCG in my opinion not been modified since all the rivets look stock and nothing has a US stamp on it. The reason I am not looking to do the conversion yet is because Slidefire just announced a stock to allow bump firing of an unmodified Saiga http://www.slidefire.com/products/saiga. Originally I was going to put the AK Slidefire stock, but I personally like this look a little better. I will need to fire it as is to see if I like the feel or would prefer the trigger forward. Sounds like most people do prefer the forward trigger though.

 

From what I have found I have a few options to get compliant, replace the piston 1 part, replace the stock trigger with a FCGNPG2 from Dinzag Arms 2 more parts as you keep the trigger, and replace the magazine for another 3. That should drop me to 7 or 8 foreign parts. I am just upset that my FFL sold me what appears to be a non-compliant weapon. Forcing me to worry about compliance from the start vs being able to spread out the purchases and work.

 

I called my local ATF office and spoke to an agent about it already and they are sending the info over to there experts in the weapons division, which is why I am not concerned about phrasing my comments in the hypothetical. But if I didn't do that already Jdub23 you have a highly valid point, for most situations that would be the smart thing to say. They should get back to me next week, I will post whatever they tell me to this thread as others may run into this mess themselves.

 

I would think that a store would be breaking the law selling it to me in that state.

 

its not illegal to sell or buy an out of compliance weapon

 

wasrNwarpaint I have been trying to find anything official that states that, by any chance do you have any links to something official stating that you can sell or buy a non-compliant weapon? I'm not talking about buying a sport version Saiga without a pistol grip then you modifying it, but buying or selling a Saiga that is non-compliant due to having a pistol grip or a high capacity removable mag at the time of sale.

 

nope the link he posted was for the tapco stock and pistol grip for an unconverted saiga.

 

 

 

I believe that the picture he posted is what is on the gun now, he stated those are 2 of the 3 parts he has on the gun, the TAPCO forearm would be the 3rd.

 

unless, I'm reading him wrong and he bought a unconverted SAIGA and those 3 parts came as additional items not attached to the gun, then there is no issue, he didn't buy a "non-compliant" gun.

 

did a US mag came with it?

 

The magazine looks stock to me, it has no US marking on it, and no brand name, Just a white stamp with the number 4. I can't say if it is a Russian 4 or an American 4

[psl sniper 963]

Just send it my way for proper disposal.

[Paulyski 2,227]

Just because someone pays a couple hundred bucks for an FFL license doesn't mean their heads aren't up their asses.
Check out the 922R subforum on this site to see if YOU are in complience with the mags and parts you intend to use.
Don't trust internet people's opinions when it's YOUR ass on the line.
Just a friendly word of advise.
Pauly.

[misterT 174]

Go ahead and convert it, sell the POS tapco stock and get a good one. If you do any searching on here you will find many threads on how bad Tapco stocks are, weak and flimsy, flex while shooting, come loose etc! The Tapco FCG ( fire control groups) however are decent and used by many in conversions. Once you convert it you will wonder why you ever considered keeping the "sporterised" FCG in the first place.

[wasrNwarpaint 184]

the laws in this country do not tell us what we are allowed to do they tell us what we are NOT allowed to do

read the 922r compliance laws & you will see they are written for the builders....now this dosent mean your not a builder, if you modify the gun your the builder & you are then responsible to be in compliance...

 

caveat ... although, apparently no one in this country has been convicted of a 922r violation & just because you have a bill of sale saying you bought this gun in this out of compliance state from an FFL licensed dealer legally....doesnt mean that some batf agent wont use this against you to build a case

 

just buy the parts and have peace of mind ....I was merely answering your question to the legality of an FFL dealer selling it legal or not

[SaigaSlinger 61]

I just read the title but I think I would make it legal.

[Battosaii 99]

Go ahead and convert it, sell the POS tapco stock and get a good one. If you do any searching on here you will find many threads on how bad Tapco stocks are, weak and flimsy, flex while shooting, come loose etc! The Tapco FCG ( fire control groups) however are decent and used by many in conversions. Once you convert it you will wonder why you ever considered keeping the "sporterised" FCG in the first place.

 

Actually the T-6 stock is not bad for what it is and mine does not wiggle or come lose at all on my s12 but the tapco folder i have somewhere in my toolbox does bend and warp i took it off cause it was scary i didnt want it to snap next to my face. I also canabalized my T-6 stock and made my own slide fire stock fuck paying $350+ for a piece of cheap plastic mine cost me the stock plus $20 at home depot and it works.

[pjj342 632]

I talked to workers in at least 5 gun stores around my area and none of them had any idea about 922r. It was a real surprise to me.

[gunman1 1,753]

I talked to workers in at least 5 gun stores around my area and none of them had any idea about 922r. It was a real surprise to me.

 

Yeah....it's amazing how many ignorant fukers are in this world, so called experts

[Voltia 375]

It's also amazing how stupid this law is.

 

I have a fundamental issue with certain weapons being allowed with all OEM equipment,

and certain weapons NOT being allowed with all OEM equipment, if they are the same capability weapons.

 

A USA made semi auto AK 47 is legal. A Russian one needs certain parts. That's all well and good, I guess,

but when you get a real high quality foreign gun, you don't want to put back (ass) engineered parts on it,

when OEM parts are superior by design. (I'm assuming people know why having prints to build from is better

than reverse engineering, here).

 

It's the American thing to do to not follow dumb laws.

[netpackrat 566]

Did you seriously rat out the FFL to the ATF over a gun that probably had those parts changed out by a previous owner anyway? I wouldn't expect anybody who isn't involved in modifying imported semi-autos to have a clue about 922r, even if they work in a gun store.

[jerry52 893]

You Called The ATF?

Bye Bye GUN,

Bye, Bye FFL

[Razr 23]

Pistol grip does not count as 922 part Does it?

[gunfun 3,931]

Yes. See the checklist. Gunwiki: 922® Worksheet for Saiga Shotguns

[mostholycerebus 415]

According to the online 922r calculator, with butstock, grip and forearm US made, all you need is a US made magazine and you are good. The magazine is 3 parts, so 6 US parts leaves you with a legal 9 Foreign parts (10 with russian brake). I would store the original mag somewhere you cant get it and be charged with Constructive Possession, like in a remote friends safe with instructions not to release it until you are compliant. Then convert to the more ergonomic original layout when you get the $$.

 

I like this website: http://jobson.us/922r/

Edited July 4, 2013 by mostholycerebus

[Shandlanos 1,470]

According to the online 922r calculator, with butstock, grip and forearm US made, all you need is a US made magazine and you are good. The magazine is 3 parts, so 6 US parts leaves you with a legal 9 Foreign parts (10 with russian brake). I would store the original mag somewhere you cant get it and be charged with Constructive Possession, like in a remote friends safe with instructions not to release it until you are compliant. Then convert to the more ergonomic original layout when you get the $$.

 

I like this website: http://jobson.us/922r/

Constructive possession does not apply to 922r compliance. At all. Ever.

 

922r compliance is the responsibility of the manufacturer. Still a good idea to get your shit compliant. I purchased a converted S-12 before that wasn't 922r compliant. I didn't lose any sleep over it. Eventually sold the shotgun, with just as much sleep lost over it.

[netpackrat 566]

You Called The ATF?

Bye Bye GUN,

Bye, Bye FFL

 

Not necessarily. Let's see what 922r actually says:

 

 

 

(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes...

 

That's it. It doesn't say shit about transfer or possession. So, unless the FFL in question did the work themselves, and there is some way of proving that they did, their legal liability should be zero. As should also be the OP's liability for having it. That's not to say that the ATF won't still confiscate it, or that "Tekilla" won't be out his money, but as far as I am concerned, that falls into the category of karma for getting the feds involved in the first place, for something that could have been fixed with a new magazine. And it's of course still possible that the OP or the FFL could still wind up in legal trouble as a result of this, because the ATF pretty much makes things up as they go these days, regardless of what the law actually says.

[mancat 2,368]

The true answer is to just stop giving a shit.

[gunman1 1,753]

^{DO NOT CALL THE POLICE}

[GeorgiaPD 408]

^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^

[pjj342 632]

 

 

I called my local ATF office and spoke to an agent about it already and they are sending the info over to there experts in the weapons division, which is why I am not concerned about phrasing my comments in the hypothetical. But if I didn't do that already Jdub23 you have a highly valid point, for most situations that would be the smart thing to say. They should get back to me next week, I will post whatever they tell me to this thread as others may run into this mess themselves.

Are you fucking insane!!!!! Its dumb to put yourself at risk, let alone the guy who sold it to you (who obviously didnt have a clue).

There is so much information online to find, why would you call people who could possibly lock you up for a dumb mistake???

The true answer is to just stop giving a shit.

 

^{DO NOT CALL THE POLICE............on yourself!!!}