Wheel weights for bullets

[termite 463]

I've got a neighbor that can get me wheel weights for casting bullets. He gave me about 120lbs about 8 months ago, I in turn , gave them to my "friend" that cast bullets, and as a dummy, expecting that he'd show his gratitude and at least let us in on some of the pistol bullets, but being the good whore I am, I got screwed again. SO, I've bought my own melter, working on getting molds, already have the .22 55grSP mold, and I plan on casting bullets for me and the lead guy, mainly for pistol loads, but I'm going to do some rifle bullets with gas checks for me, also.

Can anyone tell me about how to check hardness, what to look for and avoid? I've been reading about fluxing and keeping the temps correct. I know that wheel weights are softer than bullet lead, and have read that if the bullet is too hard, they'll explode on impact sometimes, such as hitting a bone. I don't want any of them to be so soft that they lead the barrels real bad, but on the other hand, I don't want exploding projectiles either.

Also, I see bullet molds with 1 lube groove and some with 2, what's the best and why the difference. I already have a sizing die for the .22, and will have to buy one for each caliber, so what about lube. I've shot some of the "friends" bullets, and I don't know if it's the powder he uses or the lube, but they smoke pretty bad.

When I informed the lead guy that we most likely where not going to get any of the bullets, he got pissed, but he chilled out when I told him my plans about casting for us, so I just may have a damn good, long term supply of lead, if I can get it right and make some good stuff.

Any and all help is appreciated

[montec 164]

Careful on wheel weights as some are not lead anymore. I know Lee has a great write up on casting and I believe many use the Lee products for that but I don't cast.

 

The smoke can be both the lube and the powder. I know there were some people discussimg some alternative to the lube on the bullets but I am unsure how that is going.

 

There are a few good threads on this in this section. Read up thats what I've been doing for long time here. Oh and good luck.

Edited July 11, 2013 by montec

[csspecs 1,987]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/

 

Its a whole new addiction. I'd suggest getting as much lead as you can stocked up.. I've only got 600 lbs and really want to get more before its harder to get.

 

There are tools for testing lead, it works by denting a sample cast round and either comparing or measuring the dent. Lee sells one on the cheap, you'll want a kids chemistry set microscope for taking the reading (unless your eyes are amazing).

 

From my understanding you can go softer with the bullets if you use gas checks. Gas checks are copper or aluminum caps that go on the back of rounds.

 

You'll also want to smelt your lead before putting it in the bullet melting pot. a heavy gauge steel pot over a gas turkey frier can work but check the above website for best practice. Also expect burns, if your not careful you can burn yourself to death or worse (really).

[netpackrat 566]

You cannot possibly have too much lead. My family used to own a tire shop.... We gave a lot of wheel weights away over the years simply for the price of bringing us a new bucket to put more in. Turned a LOT of it into ingots, anchors, sinkers, and even a few bullets, but with ammo being still relatively cheap back then, I didn't really get too deeply into it. By the time we sold the tire shop, I was starting to get more serious about it, and saved all of our old ingots (of which I had a LOT), anchors, and I even grabbed the last bucket or two of wheel weights that were next to the tire machines. Dragged all of that with me when we moved to Anchorage. Now, 11 years later, all of the ingots are gone, mostly sent down range. I'm in the process of turning the last coffee can anchor into bullets for my 10mm. I'm thinking evil thoughts about my lead hammer, how it would make quite a few good bullets. Last time I was out at the cabin, I grabbed the rubbermaid tub of .50 round balls that I had cast up for slingshot ammo (all cast into bullets now).

 

And I'm wishing to hell I still had all of those buckets of wheel weights that we gave away over the years. I never thought I would actually run out, I had so much when we sold the shop. Of course, very few tire shops just give away wheel weights anymore. And there are a lot of shooters in this area, so all the shops seem to have existing arrangements with local casters. I even have a wheel weight pliers like I used to use in the tire shop, and I remove the weights from any tire that I need to take in for balancing. No point in giving any away that I don't have to. It's pathetic, really.

[termite 463]

Thanks,

The "lead guy" works at a Ford dealer, and he helps keep out most of the ones that aren't lead. I may just set my stuff up at my shop, so when I get finished working, I can spend a little time casting before coming home, and ventilation is great. This is starting out to be not so cheap, but I expect it to help reduce the pain on the CC after a while. The wife just got the bill from last months spending spree for bullets and primers. OUCH....

[gunfun 3,931]

As long as you keep your melt under 700*F the zinc will float and can be skimmed off without melting in.

 

CLWW are getting very hard to find. For pistol velicities, I was having very good luck water dropping a 50/50 blend of clip on wheel weights and pure lead from various sources. With two light coatings of 45/45/10 things ran great. Not tacky, not smoky, no leading. FYI, stick on wheel weights are fairly pure and may be treated as such. Pure lead or close enough is easier to come by, so stock pile any waste solder, reclaimed shot, pewter, or other sources of tin and antimony.

 

I suggest that if you have a big stash of wheel weights or linotype, that you expiriment with your recipe to find an alloy which works but does not waste the good stuff. I also suggest that any time you change alloys, you test fire about fifty before you load up 600. (doh!)

 

The bottom line is that any alloy/method that ends up at least 12 BHN is going to do the trick for non magnum pistol loads. Here is a cheap way to test which would have saved me a hassle. Testing hardness with pencils - Page 3

 

Here is a thread on several newer techniques which can make gas checks and conventional lubes obsolete, and allow you to get away with softer lead. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?87768-lead-bullets-coated-with-polymer-paint&p=2227142&viewfull=1#post2227142

Also as far as pistol bullets are concerned, lube grooves only matter if you are using traditional lubing methods. Tumble lubing doesn't really care.

I suggest that you get the lee 6 cavity bullet mold preferably in a truncated cone version. Get a 4-20 bottom pour pot.

 

Use this method for good production rates and quality:

BruceB's Speed Casting Method

[termite 463]

GunFun, the 4/20 pot is what I bought. What is 45/45/10? I have heard of dropping the bullets into water to harden them. I just want to do it correct and have something that we can shoot and will perform. I'm not looking for 1000 yard accurate shots, but if it where to come to the nut cutting, I want to be the one doing the cutting.

[psl sniper 963]

i use wheel weights for bullets. and any soft lead for 12 gauge slugs (mostly . 68 round ball) all the bullets i cast are for 9mm.

[gunfun 3,931]

GunFun, the 4/20 pot is what I bought. What is 45/45/10? I have heard of dropping the bullets into water to harden them. I just want to do it correct and have something that we can shoot and will perform. I'm not looking for 1000 yard accurate shots, but if it where to come to the nut cutting, I want to be the one doing the cutting.

 

It is a lubrication substance/method developed by a guy who goes by recluse. Tumble Lubing--Made Easy & Mess-Free - Page 5 --9mm

 

You can buy it ready made at white label lube . com or something like that.

 

If you want to put home made lead super long range, you will need to be sizing, sorting for weight, and using harder alloy. 45/45/10 is generally considered to be good for up to 1700 FPS, although some people have made it work on faster. Basically, getting an accurate long range bullet requires a different lube method, and a lot of work on quality control and fine tuning. Traditionally this means using a luber-sizer, gas checks and a lot of time testing different lubricants and sizing, and powder variations. (This is part of my interest in the powder coat methods, since it seems to work well in normal jacketed rifle velocities, while being clean shooting and low labor.)

 

If you want to shoot steel with your pistol at pistol ranges, anything that doesn't make a mess out of your barrel will generally outshoot factory ammo.

[psl sniper 963]

heres a tidbit for some. anyone eat those little wax covered cheese's ? the baby bells or whatever? that wax makes a damn good bullet lube for pistol rounds. just from my personal experience.

[termite 463]

heres a tidbit for some. anyone eat those little wax covered cheese's ? the baby bells or whatever? that wax makes a damn good bullet lube for pistol rounds. just from my personal experience.

The red wax covering on the little cheese things? are you serious? Not being an asshole or anything, but that sounds about like a guy who told me to use "fox lard". Not saying it ain't true, but splain it, Please.

[psl sniper 963]

Im serious. it has the same viscosity and consistancy as most store bough lubes. a gentleman that does reloading and castingfor most of his shooting life does the same thing. its basicly a microcrystaline wax. i wouldnt try it for rifle rounds, but it works great on my 9mm bullets.

 

ive also had some good succes with crayon wax. but ill let you research that one on you own.

[gunfun 3,931]

Or you could buy enough 45/45/10 (which is good up to around 2700 FPS from what I have heard) for $15 to coat probably 20,000 9mm or more, and not fiddle with waiting until you have eaten a case of cheese.

 

lsstuff .com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=31

Edited July 16, 2013 by GunFun

[psl sniper 963]

Or you could buy enough 45/45/10 (which is good up to around 2700 FPS from what I have heard) for $15 to coat probably 20,000 9mm or more, and not fiddle with waiting until you have eaten a case of cheese.

 

lsstuff .com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=31

It was more of a "had it so used it" situation. I have more than i need now.........lol mmmm cheese...................

[gunfun 3,931]

I've changed my mind. Everybody should use seal oil as their lube. For everything. Seal Lube > Frog Lube. *

 

Ask a native friend to hook you up. It's all natural, biodegradable, comes from an over abundant resource, and has a light sweet flavor. I don't know how well it goes with cheeses or crackers though.

 

* No tests have yet shown anything to the contrary, so it must be true.

[termite 463]

Got my cable ripped off the pole today by BNSF truck, won't have it back until Thursday. On the droid, so I'll check it this weekend. Thanks

[psl sniper 963]

I've changed my mind. Everybody should use seal oil as their lube. For everything. Seal Lube > Frog Lube. *

 

Ask a native friend to hook you up. It's all natural, biodegradable, comes from an over abundant resource, and has a light sweet flavor. I don't know how well it goes with cheeses or crackers though.

 

* No tests have yet shown anything to the contrary, so it must be true.

ahh yes frog lube. ive lubed many a frog.....but thats another story. as to seal lube.. well thats a loaded statement. ive found most seal's to be self lubing. nothing like a little wet seal..... as to the crayons. just to show im not totally insane i copied the article id found previously.

 

Found the reference I mentioned above. It was in a Jim Taylor article.

 

Dad and I did a series of tests years ago to find out what would work for bullet lube. We wanted a lube that was easy to make and use. It was for loads under 950 fps in sixguns - practice loads. We experimented with a number of things and found that you could lube a bullet with a number of substances. For instance, I took some cartridges which had the bullets loaded "dry" - no lube on them. I would dip the nose of the bullet in motor oil, shove the cartridge into the chamber, roll the cylinder around and fire. They worked just fine...except the gun got slick after a little while. I tried Vaseline, brake fluid, Butch Wax... it all worked OK if you fired the cartridge right away. Left too long the oils would "creep" back into the case and kill the powder. But it did show what would keep a barrel from leading.

 

Eventually we settled on crayons. Yep. We melted crayons in a skillet, tossed in a handful of bullets, rolled them around until they were covered, dumped them out on a newspaper and let the wax harden. I would shoot these in the .357 and .45 Colt at speeds up to 800 fps without any leading.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Guest

[gunfun 3,931]

That is fairly true, if you want to waste tin and antimony on a needlessly hard alloy.

 

 

I've just ordered some powder coat which will probably be the life time method.

[psl sniper 963]

i tried it. (the crayons that is) using WW'S cut with soft lead. couple hundred rounds through the keltec sub 2k 9mm. no issues. i dont think it would be good for magnum or rifle rounds. but standard velocity handgun rounds? works fine. im not telling people what they should do. just posting what ive read and tried.

[gunfun 3,931]

Well, my powder coat came in yesterday, so I think after I get my work done, I will have to fire up the toaster oven and try a few.

 

It may not go perfectly though- the first batch I plan to test were some lead ones that were a bit too pure. They were lubed with 45/45/10 and got leading in my 9mm. The same load has never leaded before using 50/50 pure lead and wheel weight water dropped for hardness. sized to .358"

 

So what I did was threw the unloaded bullets from the same batch into a couple bottles of acetone to dissolve off the lube. I will bake them in powder coat. The problem will be if any residue of the old lube remains and interferes with adhesion. It is also possible that the pretty colors I chose will not work as well as colors that others have used sucessfully. However, even with PC known to perform not as well as other types, a few guys had reported that pure lead bullets could be pushed at least to 1500 FPS with no leading, so there is a lot of potential here. I may get some fancy flake or sparkle powder for pistol bullets just because I know they don't need to go very fast.

[termite 463]

GunFun,

 

Do you have a link to buy that 45/45/10. My .38/357 mold came off back order, and have some flux and other stuff due in this week. I was reading on cast boolits where they where saying that their lube on the bullets was sticky, that about sums up what the bullets that my "friend" cast and lubed up. I was also wondering how any of the lubes would effect the powder, if I where to load up a bunch and they sat for a while. I had the RCBS case lube ruin a bunch of .223, before I started washing them in simple green, rinsing 3 times and drying in the oven. I now use Hornady 1 shot.

[gunfun 3,931]

The company is called "white label lube "if you google for them. I bought a jug of their liquid alox since I already had mineral spirits and Johnson's paste wax. It is a far better deal than buying the little bottles from Lee. As I understand things they tracked down the company that sells the ingredients in Lee's product and buy it by the 55 gallon drum. By all accounts the basic LLA is identical from either brand. They aren't a biz member, and aren't competing either, so I will PM you a link.

 

45/45/10 (or "Brown Recluse" as I think of it) dries more quickly and harder than LLA. I would call it grippy rather than tacky. If you load the ammo within a day or so of lubing it might be slightly tacky still, but not nearly as bad as LLA. Warming the bullets speeds up hardening, and I prefer to let them cure at least a day before loading if I can. For one thing the lead age hardens in about 3 days so is less likely to be swaged by your dies. 45/45/10 doesn't seem to want to build up in dies like wax lube does. After I load a bunch of them my hands have a very grippy feeling from the residue. Kinda like rosin on a bow. Lava brand handsoap works well to clean it off. This stuff is hard to clean otherwise.

 

The process goes much faster if you keep an oven on low and warm the bullets before tumbling and put them on a wax paper lined cookie sheet after tumbling. If you have to size, do it between coats of 45/45/10.

 

PS I have been experimenting with powder coat too. It has promise and a lot of uses. It is a bit more time consuming than 45/45/10, but is better for very hot loads or very soft alloy. I don't have it perfected yet, and will probably keep using 45/45/10 for the mid velocity pistol bullets for convenience and speed. However, this allowed me to use some very soft bullets which caused leading before. It also makes full velocity rifle loads much cheaper, easy and more practical. So I will probably use 45/45/10 for 9mm, most 38 SPL loads and probably 45 ACP when I start making that. For hot 357 loads, and rifle ammo, I will use powdercoat. Or if I have a hard time getting enough tin and antimony in an alloy to make good bullets.

 

So far, the "known bad" batch of bullets which made a mess with 45/45/10 shot very clean with P.C. So the process works. I haven't got the process down to making the finish smooth and pretty yet though. They stick to my baking rack or non stick foil, which makes little defects in the surface finish. I am thinking that I will want to make a tumbling oven out of a Ronco rotisserie if I can find one at a garage sale. Another interesting effect was that my shots were hitting a bit low from my normal point of aim. This can be a sign of increased velocity, but I don't have a chrono that can confirm or debunk that particular guess.

[gunfun 3,931]

Oh, and I did a video about case lubing. sorry for the wind noise.

 

This technique works way better with one shot than the directions on the label. And it goes a lot further, since most of your lube is not wasted as overspray.

[termite 463]

The "lead guy" dropped off 3, 5 gallon buckets of wheel weights this afternoon. I had to unload them, but that wasn't a problem until I slid the buckets off the tail gate of the truck. there is a combination of stick on and clip on. He said that a couple of the guys at work complained about the stick ons and trying to get the sticky off the back, I figuring a soak in some xylene for a little while may loosen it up and make it wipe off, I'll try a few and see. Now to find me an old cast iron small pot to put on top of my turkey fryer burner, melt them down, flux , clean up the lead and pour into the ingot molds for later. My first thing to do is get the lead cleaned up and into ingots, then go slow into the casting and get it right.

[netpackrat 566]

The crap on the stick on weights will burn off. Just be sure to do it outdoors with a breeze. Don't do it indoors and don't breathe the resulting fumes. Put them in your pot and walk away for a few. I doubt if that's any more dangerous than breathing xylene fumes and maybe getting it on your skin. Whenever I have to use that stuff I double or triple up on the nitrile gloves.

[gunfun 3,931]

Separate out the stick ons. They are usually very pure lead. Save them for slugs.

 

All the junk burns off, as netrat said. Ditto on the outdoors. If you have a fan, set it up to suck away the fumes. Also, smoke can be a good thing because it is visible. Any toxic invisible fumes will be drifting in the same direction.

 

One thing I do if I am impatient or something doesn't fit in the pot well is to pour some cheap lamp oil I got into the pot and light it up. It helps to heat the lead faster, limits smoke and helps burn any plastiic or rubbery stuff quicker. The flames aren't too violent and there doesn't seem to be much of a flash factor.

[NuJudge 1]

I've got a neighbor that can get me wheel weights for casting bullets. He gave me about 120lbs about 8 months ago, I in turn , gave them to my "friend" that cast bullets, and as a dummy, expecting that he'd show his gratitude and at least let us in on some of the pistol bullets, but being the good whore I am, I got screwed again. SO, I've bought my own melter, working on getting molds, already have the .22 55grSP mold, and I plan on casting bullets for me and the lead guy, mainly for pistol loads, but I'm going to do some rifle bullets with gas checks for me, also.

Can anyone tell me about how to check hardness, what to look for and avoid? I've been reading about fluxing and keeping the temps correct. I know that wheel weights are softer than bullet lead, and have read that if the bullet is too hard, they'll explode on impact sometimes, such as hitting a bone. I don't want any of them to be so soft that they lead the barrels real bad, but on the other hand, I don't want exploding projectiles either.

Also, I see bullet molds with 1 lube groove and some with 2, what's the best and why the difference. I already have a sizing die for the .22, and will have to buy one for each caliber, so what about lube. I've shot some of the "friends" bullets, and I don't know if it's the powder he uses or the lube, but they smoke pretty bad.

When I informed the lead guy that we most likely where not going to get any of the bullets, he got pissed, but he chilled out when I told him my plans about casting for us, so I just may have a damn good, long term supply of lead, if I can get it right and make some good stuff.

Any and all help is appreciated

Lots of good advice above. You comment about a lot of smoke from the cast bullets made for you by a friend: some of that might have come from the powder, but it is more likely to mostly come from the bullet lubricant used. One of the most effective lubes is spoken of as "NRA formula", or "50% Beeswax/50% Alox 2138F", or just "50/50". A very smokey lube, and probably the one used on those bullets. The Alox Corporation, bought out by Lubrizol, makes various compounds which are lubricants/rust preventatives. In the 1960's, the NRA experimented with lots of different mixes to find one that was effective in preventing Leading and was accurate. NRA found this one best, but in lower pressure cartridges it produces a lot of smoke. There are various machines that apply the lube to the bullet grooves, from cheap to expensive.

 

There is another Alox bullet lubricant, Lee Liquid Alox, usually referred to as LLA, which is a much different compound, syrup-like, applied by tumbling bullets in it, in something like a butter tub. After tumbling the bullets, you typically pour them out on some wax paper for the volatiles in the LLA to evaporate. This can be used on the typical deep grooved bullet used with thick lubricants, or the Lee bullets with very shallow grooves.

 

The references above to the red wax on cheese, and also on some upscale whiskeys, is Carnuba wax. When added to a bullet lubricant, the wax will quickly become much harder, and if enough is added, will need heating of the lubricator machine to get it to flow. I have a bunch of White Label's Carnuba Red, but I have not used any (I'm happy with my 50/50). People like the way Carnuba leaves your bore very shiny. If you are in a hot climate, you might want it to keep your lube from melting.

 

There are many other lube makers out there, mostly with specialized uses. Ask the maker what they designed it for.

 

Long ago, I tried .22 cast bullets for centerfire rifles. I found them very difficult to make. Particularly in a .223 AR, accurate loads would not function the rifle.

 

Pay attention to hygiene. Lead is poison. Don't smoke or eat while casting. When done, take a shower and change clothes.

 

You can play a lot with your alloy to get different qualities. A little bit of Tin (~2%) will vastly improve the fill-out of your bullets. Most Lead scrap has Antimony or Arsenic in it. Lead with Tin and Antimony in it will be much harder than Lead with Tin or Lead with Antimony. In general, I like a hard Lead bullet. I drop my bullets from the mold into a 5 gallon pail of water, which deals with the material handling problem of handling hot bullets, and at the same time makes these alloy bullets much harder still. Many people who shoot just low pressure cartridges like a soft bullet, but it does not work for me.

 

The less sizing you do to a bullet, the better it will probably shoot. The LLA system usually works fine without sizing. You usually want your bullet to be slightly larger than groove diameter, or you will get terrible Leading from the gasses torching Lead off the bullet and depositing it in the bore. With your revolver, the bullet should be very slightly smaller than your cylinder throats. If you have a .38 revolver that has .356" cylinder throats, but a .358 barrel groove diameter, cast bullets will not work for you. Another thing to be aware of is that firearm manufacturers sometimes make their barrels have groove diameters much larger than standard: the standard groove diameter for 9mm pistols is .356", but all 7 of my Walther and Beretta 9mm pistols have groove diameters just below .358". If your .358" groove diameter demands a .359" bullet, but your chamber will not accept a cartridge with a bullet that large, leave cast bullets alone. Another problem for revolvers is that the process of threading the rear of the barrel frequently causes the ID of the barrel at the rear to decrease inside, which swages down the bullet at the barrel rear, and causes the bullet to be too small for the rest of the barrel, causing Leading.

 

For higher performance cast bullet loads, there are gas checks, but the mold has to have been cut to allow their use. I have run cast bullets to 2200 fps with excellent accuracy. The downside to them is they add a lot to the bullet's cost.

Edited August 1, 2013 by NuJudge

[termite 463]

Well, I got the burner for the fish fryer out yesterday, found a "pot", and started melting. Thank God we had a slight breeze, I stayed up wind and this shit still stunk like hell. I found a shit load of zinc weights, because I kept the heat between 725 and 750*. I maybe melted about 30lbs, before I said it's too fricking hot out here in the sun, and I was sweating like a whore in church. The wife picked me up a new cast iron pot today and I'll use it from now on, also a good respirator came in today at the shop, rated for most of the bad shit, it came home with me this afternoon. I still have about 2 1/2 buckets to go, but I'm not going to rush it. I'm thinking of keeping most of these in reserve, so if I ever need them, I'll have them, but there again, my head tells me to use these to play and plink, and keep the double butt load of jacketed and plated bullets that I have for later. I'll figure that one out later, for now, I just want to get all this damn lead melted into ingots and figure out the casting and lubing.

 

Thanks.

[NuJudge 1]

There have been discussions on the Cast Boolit board about how using a aluminum pot for rendering wheel weights is a bad idea because of softening of the aluminum. It's not clear from your post that your first pot was aluminum. Stick with the iron pot now.

[gunfun 3,931]

Lee production pots are aluminum and somehow they seem to work...