Will a Vepr 12 Trigger fit a Sagia 12?

[gljazz 0]

Could you use a Vepr FCG/selector in a saiga for conversion, or would there be fitment issues? I read you could use a G2 in the Vepr so I was hoping it would go the other way too

 

Thanks!

Edited July 13, 2013 by gljazz

[gunfun 3,931]

You don't want a Vepr trigger. They have a little different geometry anyway, and are still imported parts.

 

If you want the safety, Krebs has been making one like that for years you can buy, or you can do this which I prefer or both.

[nexus 0]

The Vepr selector and the Krebs selector both involve a steel tab on the selector, but the selector designs are otherwise totally different, and in my opinion, the Vepr tab is far superior to the Krebs tab because it can be operated without removing your trigger finger from the trigger guard. You take the gun off safe by pulling down with the Krebs part with your trigger finger, but the Vepr part involves pushing up with the knuckle at the base of your trigger finger. You also can't put your finger in the trigger guard without feeling that the safety is on, because it touches the side of your finger, which is valuable feedback when shouldering a weapon under stress. When the safety is off, you can't feel the selector. To take the Krebs off safe and fire, you have to move your finger away from the trigger and then to the trigger. With the Molot part, you just move your finger directly to the trigger while the base of your finger is bumping the selector. It involves half as much movement and it allows your finger tip to be dedicated to the trigger, instead of working the trigger and selector. The left side of the selector is only for putting the weapon on safe with your thumb. You can't swap the left side of the Vepr selector onto another AK without modding the receiver, but the right half of it could be swapped. This probably would not be safe unless you used a Vepr FCG. I swapped the right side selector onto an SGL-31 with Arsenal USA FCG just to test, and it fits, but it wouldn't be safe because the top cover is the only thing preventing the trigger bars from pushing the selector off safe due to the geometry. Even with a Vepr FCG, I can't guarantee that it would be safe to use the Vepr selector in a Saiga, but somebody ought to test it (safely, without live ammo). Altogether, GunFun is probably right to discourage you, even though the idea shows some promise.

Edited July 20, 2013 by nexus

[gunfun 3,931]

You talk as though Krebs only sells one style. This is not the case. They've been selling one with a thumb toggle years before Vepr started doing so. There is no reason at all why one cannot add both an index finger tab and a thumb toggle to an AK lever or buy one made that way.

[nexus 0]

I am familiar with the Krebs products. I have yet to see a homemade selector mod or aftermarket selector that follows the Vepr design, but it is ergonomically and mechanically superior, and it would be commonly duplicated if more people in English language forums understood the difference. 'You talk as though' it is a thumb toggle, but it is not.

[gunfun 3,931]

They do offer one with a thumb toggle.

[nexus 0]

And that's my point, most people don't seem to understand how the modified right side selector works. This is manifesting in your use of the term "thumb toggle" and drawing equivalence with Krebs products that are superficially similar but ergonomically and mechanically couldn't be more different. The modified Vepr safety on the right side of the receiver isn't a thumb toggle, but it is interchangeable with other AK selectors, and for the reasons I explained above, it is superior to just about everything on the market in the US and superior to the one finger safety mod in your sig. Think of it as a zero finger safety mod.

[gunfun 3,931]

I have used the Vepr Safety. I call it a thumb toggle because it is accessible by the left thumb if held lefty. For the right hand, it can be accessed by a counterintuitive upward push. Training can compensate. However, having the Vepr style tab and a Krebs style tab on the same lever make much more sense to me in terms of a natural motion for either hand.

 

You can keep calling me ignorant if you want, but I do understand what I am talking about. Having used an index finger tab on the safety lever body and a vepr 12 tab behind the pivot point, I strongly prefer the index finger tab forward of the pivot for right hand use.

[nexus 0]

I'm not trying to change your opinion, but I am pointing out that for the reasons described above, the Vepr selector is a measurably more efficient design, and it is not the functional equivalent of any of the products you mentioned. Even if you prefer other selectors, they aren't options for someone that wants to put the Vepr selector, or even Vepr style selector, on another gun, because they aren't Vepr style parts, period. The upward push that requires no fingers or thumbs and could even be operated while pulling the trigger might just be unintuitive because you are used to reaching away from the trigger and doing something else for an instant rather than going straight there. I should have also mentioned that like any AK safety, it's only slick if it's broken in. Most people in these forums have used the index finger tabs, but not as many have used both, and when you give them names based on how you would use them if you were using your off-hand, etc, or repeatedly claim that they are the equivalent of something that has a totally different manual of arms, then you can see where it's worth clarifying the facts for readers that haven't handled the Vepr part at all.

Edited July 22, 2013 by nexus

[Nephilim7 107]

Seems I have seen a picture of a safety selector with a tab behind the safety axis point on both sides of the gun at once. Is this the style to which you refer, nexus?

 

A picture or two would be great, if you don't mind.

[nexus 0]

Yes, I would be happy to post pictures but sorry that I can't credit all the photos. As you said, the Vepr selector has two parts--one on each side of the receiver.

 

I'll just mention that from day one I didn't like the Vepr selector. It wasn't obvious how it was supposed to be used and it was downright painful trying to operate it properly before it was broken in. I just dabbed it with polishing compound and clicked it back and forth while watching TV one evening. After breaking it in, it only took one range trip to discover and immediately benefit from the ergos. No, pun intended but it just "clicked" and became effortless. I did not have to consciously train myself to use it.

 

In this thread, most of my comments addressed the half of the selector system that is visible on the right side of the receiver in this picture below. This is the part that is interchangeable with other AKs, and this is the part that is used for switching the weapon from safe to fire. This part is not operated by your thumb, so it is not a thumb toggle, and it is not operated with your index finger. It is fast.

 

 

This (below) is the other part of the Vepr safety. It is the thumb toggle used for switching the weapon from fire to safe. It is not interchangeable with any other AK unless you have no scope rail and carefully mill a notched hole in your receiver. I mentioned this in my initial description, and even though it looks like a rare and awesome feature, I could take it or leave it. It does make it possible to put the gun on safe without releasing your grip, which is a good thing, but it doesn't make or break anything for me.

 

Paired with the other part (above), it allows you to ready and fire without disturbing any digits, and cease and put on safe while only disturbing your thumb, otherwise maintaining full control of the pistol grip. Just for contrast, an AR requires your thumb to be disturbed for both operations, the Vepr system only burdens your thumb when rendering the weapon safe. It could be easily argued that the Vepr safety system is ergonomically superior to the AR safety, let alone aftermarket AK stuff, but let's pretend I didn't just open that can of worms (or at least don't bite my head off about it until you have spent an afternoon at the range with a slicked up Vepr selector).

 

 

Below is Papazorro's closeup of both parts. As you can see, he neutered the thumb toggle part of the selector system on one of his shotguns because I guess he is in agreement that it isn't the important half of the system.

 

Below is an image that a member posted on this forum demonstrating how the selector touches your hand when it is not seated in the fire position. Without removing his finger from the trigger, this shooter could just clench his grip on the pistol grip and flex his finger into the proper position for his trigger pull and this will cause his hand to come up enough on the grip that the selector moves from safe to fire. This high clench on the grip is what you need to do to support the shotgun on firing regardless of the safety, and this is why it is efficient. There is no motion or instant dedicated to switching the selector, it is just part of gripping the gun and squeezing the trigger. Unless you are gripping it too far back, with your finger out of the trigger guard, then it comes off as effortlessly as a passive safety mechanism. It is hard to shoulder the weapon and reach into the trigger guard without toggling the selector, and it would be totally impossible to shoulder the weapon without feeling and implicitly knowing the status of the safety.

Below we see how the selector is parallel to the bottom of the receiver and totally out of the shooter's way when the safety is off.

 

Below is the ordinary index finger selector tab available from Krebs, et al. If this shooter is readying the weapon to fire, then his finger must start up and away from the trigger either kept there perpetually above the tab, or it has to move there, pull the tab, and then land back on the trigger to fire. With the Vepr safety, you could do all this with your finger on the trigger and your sights on the bad guy. This index finger tab is better than an ordinary AK safety because even though it still requires the dedicated operation of the safety, it allows your thumb to maintain its grip. In contrast, an AR also allows your thumb to retain its grip, but it is superior to the AK index finger tab because in an AR the thumb is dedicated to the safety and the index finger is dedicated to the trigger, whereas with the AK selector mod, the index finger tab burdens that digit with both operations in succession.

 

 

Below you see the Krebs thumb toggle. This is the one that might superficially resemble the Vepr selector, but has a totally different manual of arms. Notice that the tab is positioned almost 90 degrees away from the Vepr tab. The tab is actuated by the thumb which requires breaking grip. It is more efficient than an unmodified selector, but less efficient than the index finger tab. Most people that own AKs don't bother with either of these upgrades, but this one is probably the least useful of the two.

 

 

 

 

Lastly, we have my super scientific diagram documenting the operating contact points of these various mods (just with regards to readying the weapon to fire, not rendering safe). You see that the Krebs mods burden digits, but the Vepr part is operated with the side of your palm. The palm is inherently stronger than the fingers, and this fact also contributes to the inherent ergonomic/mechanical efficiency of the Vepr selector.

 

Edited July 22, 2013 by nexus