Csspecs steel S-12 mag production prototype pictures

[joebanda1213 59]

Awesome. Ill test if needed just north of you in GA.

[Nephilim7 107]

It would be really nice if the anti-tilt tabs visible in the first pic (two on either side of the mag just below the magwell opening when inserted) were made to be fitted as well in order to snug the mag in the end-user's magwell as much as possible. Just a thought.

 

 

Looks like a very solid, stiff magazine. I am curious how it withstands drop tests on concrete at the feedlips and rear edge near the base plate. A couple of quick force calculations could be used with a sledge hammer hinged at the handle and dropped repeatedly from a specified height onto a vise-held mag for drop test simulation. This way, worst-case drops could be targeted and tested specifically.

 

I'm really digging the small friction points you have going on. Looks fantastic from here!

 

ETA: I also wonder if a specific kind of rim lock can be adressed. (This actually happened the second OEM mag I ever put through my S12 and has happened since) I can cause my OEM mag to seize by loading 2 3/4 loads where the rear of the metal shell base (rim) catches on the front metal edge of the shell base of the previously loaded round. This causes rim lock of sorts between the front and back wall of the mag. Not a big deal if you know to pay attention while loading, but it would be nice to have a "me-proof" mag...

Edited July 17, 2013 by Nephilim7

[csspecs 1,987]

The 10s are going to have to wait a little. My press is not generating its rated pressure due to a few worn parts, and it can't get the stamping crisp enough.

I have another larger press but it has a feeder welded inside of it that needs to be removed before it can accept the plates. Plus about two weeks of adjusting it with a scraping tool.

 

 

 

 

The four stabilizing tabs are set a little on the tight side, but they are set to be fairly close. On my shotgun the receiver is bowed slightly so it fits, but it should be snug for everyone else.

 

 

 

Our mag should prevent that form of rim lock from happening, the space for loading the shells is smaller and should not allow that to happen.

 

 

 

I'll need a hardened mag for testing drops. They should out preform a equal force impact, drops are going to favor the lightest mag since impact force formula is mostly dependent on weight.

Sledge hammers are far to heavy for correct testing.

My preferred "drop test" is a blunt weighted cylinder in a tube that impacts the part, that way the impact is comparing the actual strength of the part. Rather then its weight. I use about a 10 ounce weight and about 4 feet of travel. The test is to measure deflection only, I can break any mag with this test, so it has to be set correctly to get a result.

Running over mags with trucks or stepping on them is just silly salesman stuff not actual data.

[Sport Rescue 245]

After receiving my Vepr.308 steel mags, I have no doubt that these new S12 mags will most likely be better than any mag on the market today. Keep up the good work Csspecs.

[Eric Pate 478]

Niiiice. Very nice, congratulations.

 

I also have been putting off buying new mags just waiting for these babies to become available. Can't wait.

 

Oh, and Thank You.

[gunfun 3,930]

Thanks again.

 

Does anyone have about a day to waste? -- They could comb through all the old posts and make a compilation of every forum post saying steel mags would never happen. I think that would make a great trophy to post in CSSpecs's forum section.

[Nephilim7 107]

Thanks again.

 

Does anyone have about a day to waste? -- They could comb through all the old posts and make a compilation of every forum post saying steel mags would never happen. I think that would make a great trophy to post in CSSpecs's forum section.

 

Great idea! This "Trophy Thread" should be directly followed by an "S12 steel mag success/ product appreciation thread". I'm so excited... and I just can't hide it.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Nephilim7

[neubert500 11]

I just want to add my thanks for your trouble in making these and look forward to buying them. 8 rounders in steel! YEAH!

[pedal2alloy 206]

 

Thanks again.

 

Does anyone have about a day to waste? -- They could comb through all the old posts and make a compilation of every forum post saying steel mags would never happen. I think that would make a great trophy to post in CSSpecs's forum section.

 

Great idea! This "Trophy Thread" should be directly followed by an "S12 steel mag success/ product appreciation thread". I'm so excited... and I just can't hide it.

 

 

I don't know, that's a lot of negative energy. Back in the day, there were all kinds of flame wars and vitriol for some reason, when anybody had an idea to make anything. It always ended with the guy getting scared off when he realized that his customer base was a bunch of kooks. Or some genius would warn him that he would be liable mass shootings and shit.

 

Remember the guy that went as far as having dies made to stamp the mags? Then he gave up and supposedly someone bought the dies from him, but then that guy got scared off.

 

Those were some dark times

[Razorback 72]

God that is a great looking magazine. I also have been waiting on the steel mags. I would buy one just to have it to test it for that matter. Please put me on the waiting list, I can hardly wait for these to become available. PM me or at least make a new post when they are ready for sale. And Thank You for bringing another Saiga product to market and supporting the Saiga Community, and this forum.

Razorback

[csspecs 1,987]

 

 

Thanks again.

 

Does anyone have about a day to waste? -- They could comb through all the old posts and make a compilation of every forum post saying steel mags would never happen. I think that would make a great trophy to post in CSSpecs's forum section.

 

Great idea! This "Trophy Thread" should be directly followed by an "S12 steel mag success/ product appreciation thread". I'm so excited... and I just can't hide it.

 

 

I don't know, that's a lot of negative energy. Back in the day, there were all kinds of flame wars and vitriol for some reason, when anybody had an idea to make anything. It always ended with the guy getting scared off when he realized that his customer base was a bunch of kooks. Or some genius would warn him that he would be liable mass shootings and shit.

 

Remember the guy that went as far as having dies made to stamp the mags? Then he gave up and supposedly someone bought the dies from him, but then that guy got scared off.

 

Those were some dark times

 

 

I'd guess it was less him getting scared and more that the Saiga-12 is a hateful design. I do remember that the plates sold for something like $40K on gunbroker at some point.

 

Anyway I have 12 built and tested. They go to the finisher in the morning.

[Nephilim7 107]

Snap a few glamor pics before they are sent out to the testors!

 

I guess my testing invite got lost in the mail...

 

How long do you guesstimate until we have a retail product?

[beefcakeb99 572]

I think a lot of people will come onboard the s12 wagon now that there are finally going to be steel mags on the market!

[csspecs 1,987]

Hopefully they live up to all expectations.

 

The first batch of test models which are at heat treat/metal finishing are hand cut parts rather then laser cut. They all fit our test shotgun with good lock up.

Hand cut parts are about three weeks faster for prototypes but they can have occasional deviations. Odds are one or two samples is going to have an issue. Average part deviation was .008 but it compounded to .03 on some of the samples, the computer design shows that to still work but testing will answer what actually happens.

 

I still have to go through my list of testers from way back, I have not emailed anyone yet. I'm probably going to get a feeler gauge caliper and file to send along with each sample.

 

My testing showed that harder shells did best(fed bulk rem game loads), soft shells worked for two cycles on average(Winchester bulk). Our tests show that our follower design gave 30% less resistance to upward travel which may mean a shorter or softer spring would do better. High speed video will answer that once I get a finished sample in hand.

It appears that the lack of resistance on the follower allows the rounds to rise rapidly causing them to impact the bottom of the bolt somewhat hard.

This impacting flattens the front of the round remaining in the mag and lowers the feed angle of each following round.

 

I'm probably going to send three springs of different lengths as well to zero in on best function.

[Nephilim7 107]

I wonder if a stiffer spring may solve that problem, instead. In my mind, the stack of soft shells may be bouncing elastically under cycling impulse causing the round column to be in vertical rebound inside the mag when it should be ready to feed. Hard to solve an imagined scenario though... LOL

 

I would also think a full-length spring with decreased spring rate would be a more consistent option than a shorter spring of equal spring rate through the long stroke cycle.

 

I am sure you will find the best way. You guys are the experts!

 

BTW, what is the follower material? Nylon?

[jojo200517 68]

Glad these are going to work with both 2.75 and 3 inch shells. I guess I don't have an excuse to not buy a s-12 now. If these are as great as your 308 mags I'll be having to work some overtime soon so I can say take my money.

edit: Whats the chance of a 20 round steel drum

Edited July 19, 2013 by jojo200517

[gunman1 1,753]

Man....you guys rock. I remember when everyone became resigned to the "FACT" that "NOBODY" would 'EVER" make an after market mag for the S20, they're just aren't enough S20s to warrant doing it............Then BAM.

 

And now here we are again, nuff said

[csspecs 1,987]

Follower is stamped steel.

 

The spring tension is best puzzled out using a high speed camera and a mag with a few cutouts in it. Then you just watch the video to see what is actually going on.

My comments about the spring feeling too stiff is more from loading the mags and feeling how the rounds pop up.

 

For me to make a drum I'd have to figure a way to top the MD Arms drum, and they set the bar pretty high.

 

Depending on function with test mags these are roughly 60-80 days out.

[raidersfan_5544 57]

Depending on function with test mags these are roughly 60-80 days out.

Sounds good...looking forward to checking some out!!!

[TIMTIMTIM 57]

I cannot wait to get my hands on a few of these. Just noticed you were in florida also!

[jojo200517 68]

edit: Whats the chance of a 20 round steel drum

 

For me to make a drum I'd have to figure a way to top the MD Arms drum, and they set the bar pretty high.

 

Rear loading, wind up style, more compact and steel vs poly. Make it take 3 inch shells and i'd call it golden.

[unclejake 428]

^{Would most definitely be glad to sacrifice a goodly amount of my ammo to be a tester, if you need another!}

[cvhanh20 1,052]

Ok this is the first production prototype. First to be built on full tooling.

 

These still need to be sent to testers once we get done with the testing on our end. But odds are its going to look like the below photo other then it will be a flat black color.

 

Any questions or opinions are welcome.

 

Magazine is a 8 round capable of being loaded on a closed bolt. Magazine weighs about 14 ounces empty which is about 20% more then your average poly mag.

 

Mag function is very slick. All steel construction.

 

Likely pricing on first run will be around $60, we may be able to negotiate lower volume pricing with our suppliers.

It may be lower depending on actual production time but that is the early numbers.

 

 

 

Since we are both working on the same project and you are beating me at this point, I guess I should throw my dies at you! I didn't know anyone else was working on 8rd steel mags, or I might have shifted gears months ago. We are not a stamp shop so we have been installing our press shop and tooling division for over two years now. We have been doing so to support stamped metal parts related to our rail business and our up coming mag designs. My hat is off to you, I know the work involved in this tooling and have started and stopped a couple times on our die sets with all the threats of banning this weapon. I'm not going to lie, I thought there would be more response than so far, I thought this thread would blow up this site. I do believe once people get it, you'll get those dies paid off pretty quick, best of luck to you.

[JoeyPBasically 3]

SWEEEEEEEEETTTT

[gunfun 3,930]

I was looking forward to having two offerings.

 

Also- there is a lot of room for a steel mag compatible with Vepr12 /S12 030 magwells.

As far as the lack of site explosion-- I think most of the people who are most excited have been burned a few times with optimistic delivery predictions of previous products. They are hopeful, but not so vocal this time around. I am sure they are lining up to buy and will be very enthusiastic purchasers when they products are available for purchase.

[csspecs 1,987]

Cameron I'd hang on to your dies and planning, nothing says that these actually work. Plus I'm kinda a small production shop, so there may be room for two. However you make great milled parts which is the larger area of the gun parts market right now. Stamping and resistance welding is a whole other can of worms.

 

Your concept ideas are past my ability to make, and we did try to give a wide berth to your concept drawings, you've likely noticed the lack of the common three ribs we used on our .308 mags. We also used what we think is a different fold pattern for the follower, and the floor plate is different then standard as well. Figured that would allow for a distinctive look for each, should you make yours.

 

This is the slow time of year. Net traffic is down 60% on most firearms sites, sales are down on in stock items. It won't pick up until September when the kids are back in school.

 

Won't really buzz here until we get some more guns either. Imports are kinda slow still.

 

Even still almost 50 posts (can't count mine) in 10 days of the slow season is pretty good.

Actual test results should show what actual buzz is out there. Plus I see nothing on any other site, which lends support to GunFuns idea that people are not reposting since they don't want to post something that falls through.

 

I'm cautiously optimistic on function. They worked in my early testing, with a little luck they will work in the next couple steps and into production.

[beefcakeb99 572]

Kudos for the innovation!

[cvhanh20 1,052]

Cameron I'd hang on to your dies and planning, nothing says that these actually work. Plus I'm kinda a small production shop, so there may be room for two. However you make great milled parts which is the larger area of the gun parts market right now. Stamping and resistance welding is a whole other can of worms.

 

Your concept ideas are past my ability to make, and we did try to give a wide berth to your concept drawings, you've likely noticed the lack of the common three ribs we used on our .308 mags. We also used what we think is a different fold pattern for the follower, and the floor plate is different then standard as well. Figured that would allow for a distinctive look for each, should you make yours.

 

This is the slow time of year. Net traffic is down 60% on most firearms sites, sales are down on in stock items. It won't pick up until September when the kids are back in school.

 

Won't really buzz here until we get some more guns either. Imports are kinda slow still.

 

Even still almost 50 posts (can't count mine) in 10 days of the slow season is pretty good.

Actual test results should show what actual buzz is out there. Plus I see nothing on any other site, which lends support to GunFuns idea that people are not reposting since they don't want to post something that falls through.

 

I'm cautiously optimistic on function. They worked in my early testing, with a little luck they will work in the next couple steps and into production.

You're not kiddin! Stamping is a whole different ball of wax. Believe it or not I actually started off as a metal spinning apprentice. Through out the years of being in the machining trades I've designed and built only a hand full of dies, never really got much into that market. When I started looking into mag manufacturing I hired one of the best die designers in southern Indiana, he's now retired but still comes in and shoots the shit every now and then. He is blown away at times with some of my designs and proclaims I like to push the boundaries a little to much. I have since taken over on all die designs. I find that I really enjoy designing progressive dies, the more complex the better. Our AK Titan rail has some cool little stamped parts which I've had to design progressive dies for, we are now cutting the tooling for those. CNC wire EDM has made that phase much easier. Anyway, I appreciate your kind words and I agree with your outlook on the market.

[storm6490 2,768]

This is GREAT! I can test and document them for you, or wait to buy them anyway. I'm stoked to see such a nice magazine. Thanks for taking one for the team!

 

Hooah!

[505Fire 2]

Definitely interested if there were a VEPR 12 version.