Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Hi guys. I joined this forum today because I'm at my wits end with my Saiga. I (try) to shoot 3 Gun, in Open Division. When I started, the Saiga was really my only option for a Open shotgun, so I bought one and converted it to pistol grip. I could not get it to run very reliably, ever, and at this point in time it has gotten so bad that I'm about to part it out and start over with an Adkal, which I would hate to do because of the time and money I have invested in the Saiga.

 

My primary failure is failure to eject. The gun extracts. It doesn't like to feed some types of slug, but it simply will not extract with any reliability whatsoever. Here are the modifications on the gun. I didn't do them all at once, and I cannot point to a single one that made any significant change in how it operates.

 

DPH 6 setting gas plug

CSS gas "puck" with nipple

CSS trigger guard

Tapco pistol grip

ACE stock

Chaos over the dustcover rail

Magwell

 

That's everything I've bolted on. In addition:

 

I drilled and tapped the bolt carrier and installed a left side charging handle.

Milled the dust cover for the charging handle

Fabricated a magazine release extension to operate with your trigger finger, silver soldered to magazine catch.

Honed the gas block/gas chamber (where the puck is) since it was slightly out of round and the CSS puck bound up inside

Drilled the 3 existing gas ports out to 0.090" and deburred the holes

Drilled a 4th gas hole and deburred.

Polish job on the moving parts

Enlarged the #6 setting on the DPH plug to accomodate new gas hole

Enlarged the clearance hole in the gas block to accomodate new gas hole

 

 

At this point, from my reading here, the only 2 things left I could possibly do would be to A) weld or tap and plug the gas vent in the gas block (I do not understand how this could help, by time gas can reach this vent, the puck has already traveled it's course and the bolt carrier is no longer in contact with it) and B) TIG weld up the ejector so that it ejects sooner.

 

I'm leaning towards (B). I can hand cycle through every magazine I own without hiccup. Those include 10 round, 12 round, 5 round, and even some 20 round stick magazines I made from SGM 12 round magazines by coupling them and soldering the springs together.

 

However, the one thing I notice during hand cycling, is that sometimes the extractor loses the shell before impacting the ejector because it was disturbed by the next shell in the magazine. I think a longer ejector would solve that problem.

 

Anyway, any help you could give me would be appreciated. It cannot be a gas issue. It will not run buck, slugs, high brass field loads, AA Heavy, AA Super Handicap, *anything*. While test firing I placed my hand at the rear-most travel of the charging handle to see if the bolt carrier was truly making full travel to the rear, and it smoked my hand pretty good. I definitely have gas.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 65
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

I would bet honing the gas block/chamber is the major cause of your problem.

You do not need the ejector mod. You have other problems that need to be fixed prior to even contemplating this. I have welded up the ejectors on some of the competition guns years ago, and that was

No insult intended, but this was an excellent example of a little knowledge becoming a dangerous thing!!!   Jack

are you running 3" or 2 3/4"? may sound like a stupid question but If you have a buffer in there it might not be getting full travel because of it. you dont seem to have any obvious problems listed if its getting full travel. Has it ever run right? maybe during some of the mods you either messed up the extractor or the ejector. Do you know anyone with a bolt you can borrow to see if it runs better with a different bolt head or carrier assembly?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, no, I forgot that. I am using a CSS "basic conversion kit."


are you running 3" or 2 3/4"? may sound like a stupid question but If you have a buffer in there it might not be getting full travel because of it. you dont seem to have any obvious problems listed if its getting full travel. Has it ever run right? maybe during some of the mods you either messed up the extractor or the ejector. Do you know anyone with a bolt you can borrow to see if it runs better with a different bolt head or carrier assembly?

 

It has never run right with any combination of mods, nor when completely stock. I'm using 2 3/4" shells exclusively. I have no polyurethane buffer installed. I do not know anyone else with a Saiga 12. (small town)

Edited by kuraki
Link to post
Share on other sites

where are you located, maybe someone is close by that can take a look. with all those mods and it never running right its hard to say. I like to get it running before modding it myself


How hard is it to hand cycle? does it hang up on the back stroke so that it gets jerky?


run it with the top cover off, maybe its that simple.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I can understand that. I just never envisioned having this much trouble with it. I have a lot of experience modding guns, and am a machinist for a living. I've never gotten myself into a project I couldn't work my way out of, and I figured if people can get 7" SBS Saigas to run, there's no reason I wouldn't get this one to.

 

I should have sent it in right away, before converting it, but simply assumed the "normal" issues that are typically resolved with the various aftermarket gas plugs and pucks.

 

By that time I had it converted and was past the point of sending it in for repair.

 

ETA: Western Wisconsin.

Edited by kuraki
Link to post
Share on other sites

You are shooting 2 3/4" shells, what brand or "who's" reloads. Could it not be getting enough gas? Try putting the factory plug back in, on #2 and see. Hell, with 4 holes, it should run, unless it's being choked off.

 

I have tried:

My own reloads (1.125 oz 7.5 shot over 18 grains Red Dot, AA hull)

Winchester AA Super Handicap

Winchester AA Heavy Target (have been the "best" reliability, say only 30-40% failure to eject)

Federal Bulk

Winchester Bulk

PMC Slugs

Remington Slugger

Winchester Super-X Slug

Federal Premium 00 Buck

Estate 00 Buck

 

 

Like I said, I don't think it can be a gas issue any more. The bolt carrier is definitely traveling all the way to the rear trunnion. I just think, at this point, (and probably 1 gas port ago too) that the bolt would "drop" the shell before it would impact the ejector, resulting in an attempt to refeed the spent hull and the next shell, or stovepipe, or similar.

 

Another point of note: It has never, with any gas setting all the way to the point I am at now, ejected a spent hull more than 6-12" from the gun. Even when it "works" for 4 or 5 rounds, the hulls just dribble out of the gun.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed. Don't give up.

 

All that gas can lead to bolt bounce off the rear trunnion... Is the shell not being released and crushed on its nose after firing, or is it stove piping?

 

If it is bolt bounce, you may try setting one of the factory plug to gas down a bit. Polishing the gas block is generally NOT something I would suggest either.

 

You didn't change the gas port window of the bottom of the gas block did you?

 

I would stop looking at adding gas. It didn't improve the first time, I wouldn't keep doing it.

 

What is your stock set up? Do you hold the gun tight to your shoulder and lean into it?

 

Someone much wiser than me will come along and solve this. Just be patient and informative. We need more info. Pics are great too.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Swedeness! I got family etc in lacrosse, tomah, Green Bay, el Roy and plover. I'll be up that way in October and can brings functioning one along.

1- go back like others suggested to factory parts

2- just say no to1919 comp guy said on a match 2 of em cracked plastic to failure

3- check out the areA by your extractor. Lotta folks lose energy there allegedly

4- burrs are outta barrel for sure? I've had troublers a few times when burrs went rearward and upon firing came back fwd.

5- are ports obstructed in block?

6- I think the pucks ate supposed to be fairly tight all the ones I've touched slide around fairly loosely but is a catch to em.

7 - can ya weld a bit on ejector and reprofile ?

8 -have ya checked fit of shell to bolt face? Like burrs in guide or extractor gummed up?

Link to post
Share on other sites

You do not need the ejector mod. You have other problems that need to be fixed prior to even contemplating this. I have welded up the ejectors on some of the competition guns years ago, and that was only because the factory ejectors were not to spec. It is not necessary with a properly tuned/set up Saiga Shotgun.

 

Both the Barrel and the Gas Block are chrome plated. If you removed material from the gas block, by honing, you may have gone outside acceptable tollerences.

 

It is always something simple, but hard to figure out if you don't have the experinece:)

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Multi quote, nice function.

puc flat side towards the back of the gun?

 

No, the nipple is toward the piston

 

You do not need the ejector mod. You have other problems that need to be fixed prior to even contemplating this. I have welded up the ejectors on some of the competition guns years ago, and that was only because the factory ejectors were not to spec. It is not necessary with a properly tuned/set up Saiga Shotgun.

 

Both the Barrel and the Gas Block are chrome plated. If you removed material from the gas block, by honing, you may have gone outside acceptable tollerences.

 

It is always something simple, but hard to figure out if you don't have the experinece:)

 

I concede that it is possible, but would argue it was out of tolerance initially. There is currenly 0.002" clearance between the ID of the gas chamber and the OD of the puck. The puck would not pass -period- prior to honing. You could force it through with a hammer and wood dowel. The original puck had more like 0.007" clearance, and passed with slight resistance.

 

I believe my ejector may very well be out of spec, but I have no way of knowing what spec is, either length or position, because I have nothing to compare it to. Again, the chief malfunction seems to be that the bolt loses the spent hull prior to engaging the ejector when it is disrupted by the next shell in the magazine.

 

Swedeness! I got family etc in lacrosse, tomah, Green Bay, el Roy and plover. I'll be up that way in October and can brings functioning one along.
1- go back like others suggested to factory parts
2- just say no to1919 comp guy said on a match 2 of em cracked plastic to failure
3- check out the areA by your extractor. Lotta folks lose energy there allegedly
4- burrs are outta barrel for sure? I've had troublers a few times when burrs went rearward and upon firing came back fwd.
5- are ports obstructed in block?
6- I think the pucks ate supposed to be fairly tight all the ones I've touched slide around fairly loosely but is a catch to em.
7 - can ya weld a bit on ejector and reprofile ?
8 -have ya checked fit of shell to bolt face? Like burrs in guide or extractor gummed up?

 

1- Not an option. This has been a multi year saga and I can no longer find them

2-Then I may have to just go back to Tactical Scoped

3-I would need more clarification on this: Do you mean the clearance between the extractor shoulder and the barrel cutout? Or the surface finish of the shoulder?

4-I am fairly confident yes, but something I can and will check again.

5-No

6-See previous answer

7-That is my plan

8-Actually, no, and I will do this tomorrow before doing anything else

 

Agreed. Don't give up.

All that gas can lead to bolt bounce off the rear trunnion... Is the shell not being released and crushed on its nose after firing, or is it stove piping?

If it is bolt bounce, you may try setting one of the factory plug to gas down a bit. Polishing the gas block is generally NOT something I would suggest either.

You didn't change the gas port window of the bottom of the gas block did you?

I would stop looking at adding gas. It didn't improve the first time, I wouldn't keep doing it.

What is your stock set up? Do you hold the gun tight to your shoulder and lean into it?

Someone much wiser than me will come along and solve this. Just be patient and informative. We need more info. Pics are great too.

 

To eliminate bolt bounce (I once had an overgassed SBR AR15 that when I put a suppressor on, would actually attempt to push the spent casing back into the chamber faster than the spring loaded ejector could get rid of it) I have attempted test firings at all gas settings on the DPH plug. At 1, the shell will not even leave the chamber completely and is reinserted. At 2, 30-40% of the time it will do as 1, and the rest of the time the hull will completely clear the chamber and then be pinned against the barrel. At 3, it will occasionally repeat pinning against the barrel, and occasionally eject, and sometimes stovepipe. At 4, it will cycle 1 out of 10 times, the rest will be a failure to eject usually ending in a stovepipe or double feed. At 5 it will cycle 3 out of 10 times, same failures. At 6 it will cycle half of the time depending on ammunition, the other half the same failures. I doesn't appear to be bolt bounce, and I would expect a failure to feed because of the fixed ejector. If the bolt is travelling at such velocity that bounce back was an issue, the shells should be ejected violently as it passes the ejector, and then my problem would be a bolt moving faster than the magazine is capable of feeding, right?

 

To discount on whether I was "limp wristing" (or limp shouldering) the gun, I actually set it up with a backstop today and test fired it. No changes in operation. I understand honing the gas chamber wouldn't necessarily be recommended. It was not round. If there is one modification I've done that I will stand behind, it's this one, because it's the one instance where I could measure multiple places, document the deviation, and repair it. The only reason the stock puck would pass was because it was severely undersized. The CSS puck would have to be forced through with a hammer. I opened up the gas port window in the gas block slightly (less than 1mm) to assure the 4th hole would not be blocked.

 

I would bet honing the gas block/chamber is the major cause of your problem.

 

See above. Gun would not run in stock form either. There has been literally no change in function in any step I've taken. The only reason I still own the thing is because it tricks me into believing it's fixed, by running well for 25-30 rounds during a test, and then choking every other round the next day at a match.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Multi quote, nice function.

puc flat side towards the back of the gun?

 

No, the nipple is toward the piston

 

Isn't the nipple supposed to go forward? (if im looking at the right puc and piston being the op rod)

 

(from CSS website) CSS Performance Puc installs easily with the flat side towards the back of the gun and the "Nose" towards the Front.

 

Anyways i don't think that'd be the main cause of all your problems since it was doing it from stock. Post pictures of EVERYTHING from as many angles as you can. There are quite a few guys on here that are pretty much wizards when i comes to troubleshooting and building ridiculous running S12s.

Link to post
Share on other sites

some thoughts:

 

#1, I'd tend to listen to Jack Travers. IMO it would be cheaper and more productive to send him the gun than to write it off. He builds race gun for a living after all.

 

#2 You are talking about tuning the ejector. Do you know for certain that the extractor is properly hooking the shells? If there is a weak spring or a deformity or maybe even some junk in there holding the extractor open partly or intermittantly, this might explain your issues.

 

#3 If I read things correctly, you have 4 ports at .090". A normal range that people have found to work is between 4 at .078" and 4 @.093". While I'd look at the next comment before enlarging, It wouldn't write the gun off before opening them up more. Your points about the bolt making full stroke are noted and have some logic to them.

 

#4 We don't know what friction misalignment or binding is going on in the action or what you have done to mitigate it. This can be in the gas tube, in the rails, in the timing chanel in the carrier, in the engagement of the lugs to the breach face, in the spring assembly, in the hammer profile, in a possible contact between magazine and bolt carrier if there is slop...


Another thought occurs. Set up a video camera on the highest frame rate you can manage with a lot of light shining at the breach area. Shoot a few rounds with the dust cover off and get a real good look at what is happening.

 

Sharpie one side of the rounds and stack them all in the mag the same orientation so that you can clearly see what happens.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Multi quote, nice function.

puc flat side towards the back of the gun?

 

No, the nipple is toward the piston

 

Isn't the nipple supposed to go forward? (if im looking at the right puc and piston being the op rod)

 

(from CSS website) CSS Performance Puc installs easily with the flat side towards the back of the gun and the "Nose" towards the Front.

 

Anyways i don't think that'd be the main cause of all your problems since it was doing it from stock. Post pictures of EVERYTHING from as many angles as you can. There are quite a few guys on here that are pretty much wizards when i comes to troubleshooting and building ridiculous running S12s.

 

 

Facepalm. I always thought the puck was to engage the piston for a longer impulse.

 

Where at in W WI? I'm at Oshkosh, and shoot at Leola Marsh at Owens Rock about 7 mi off of HWY 13.

 

Black River Falls. About 2.5 hours from OSK.

 

some thoughts:

 

#1, I'd tend to listen to Jack Travers. IMO it would be cheaper and more productive to send him the gun than to write it off. He builds race gun for a living after all.

 

#2 You are talking about tuning the ejector. Do you know for certain that the extractor is properly hooking the shells? If there is a weak spring or a deformity or maybe even some junk in there holding the extractor open partly or intermittantly, this might explain your issues.

 

#3 If I read things correctly, you have 4 ports at .090". A normal range that people have found to work is between 4 at .078" and 4 @.093". While I'd look at the next comment before enlarging, It wouldn't write the gun off before opening them up more. Your points about the bolt making full stroke are noted and have some logic to them.

 

#4 We don't know what friction misalignment or binding is going on in the action or what you have done to mitigate it. This can be in the gas tube, in the rails, in the timing chanel in the carrier, in the engagement of the lugs to the breach face, in the spring assembly, in the hammer profile, in a possible contact between magazine and bolt carrier if there is slop...

Another thought occurs. Set up a video camera on the highest frame rate you can manage with a lot of light shining at the breach area. Shoot a few rounds with the dust cover off and get a real good look at what is happening.

 

Sharpie one side of the rounds and stack them all in the mag the same orientation so that you can clearly see what happens.

 

1-I'm listening to all of you. This is the most and best advice I've gotten on the S-12 and I can't believe the response on the forum. I wish I'd come here a year ago.

2-Very good point and well taken. Like the other member who mentioned checking rim engagement/fit on the bolt to shell base, I will look at this first today.

3-Noted

4-All I can say, having never been able to handle another S-12, is that it hand cycles quite smoothly. I have polished the area of the bolt and carrier that ride on the hammer during reset, as well as the area that rides over the next shell. I've polished the shoulder of the bolt that engages the camming cut, and I've polished the hammer face. One thing I would note, leading towards your extractor point, is that when hand cycling rounds in and out of the gun, I don't have the ejection problem. In fact, I can eject a round 10 feet by hand cycling if I try. Even then, I'm not cycling the bolt carrier as fast as when under gas pressure, so that leads me to believe that something about the gas impulse leads to losing control of the spent hull that doesn't occur when hand cycling.

 

I can attempt the video camera. I have tried to do this before and the cameras I own don't seem to have enough framerate to capture anything helpful. I attempted a M&P 45 conversion to .460 Rowland that would cycle the slide faster than the magazine could keep up with at full house Rowland loads. None of my video cameras could really catch it, however, it is worth a try.

 

Thanks again everyone.

Link to post
Share on other sites

First off: Are you getting full carrier cycle during the recoil cycle?

 

During the recoil cycle, if the bolt/carrier is lifting/bouncing above the ejector, you can recreate this by hand cycling. It is rare, but it does happen and will require the ejector to be welded to compensate for this.

 

With the dust cover off, slowy cycle the shotgun and lift up on the charging handle/carrier during the cycle and see if you can lift the shell above the ejector.

 

Jack

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Before I leave for work I thought I would try a few rounds with my puck installed correctly, flat side to piston.

 

Setting 1 - Hull not withdrawn from chamber

Setting 2 - Same

Setting 4 - "classic" failure to eject (see picture)

Setting 5- Ejected first round, classic failure 2nd round

Setting 6- Classic failure

 

This is what I'm calling my classic failure. 90% of the time it's some variation of this. You'll see that the spent hull is free of the bolt, the bolt has begun it's travel forward and has started indexing the next shell into the chamber. I can replicate this failure by hand with empty hulls. I can't with loaded shells, and I believe the weight of shot is what makes a difference. If I extract an empty by hand, slowly, as soon as the open crimp clears the chamber, the next round in the magazine tips up and pushes the spent hull. This generally pushes the rim off of the feed tab on the bolt. It will continue to be retained somewhat by the extractor until it reaches the ejector, but because it is at and angle, the ejector just finishes what the fresh shell started, and pops it off of the extractor.

 

IMG_0134_zps3798805e.jpg

 

This image is just to show that I believe extractor tension appears normal, though I have no frame of reference. I have to snap the shell rim in and out by rocking against the feed nipple.

 

IMG_20130720_082101_034_zps0fa7d428.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

First off: Are you getting full carrier cycle during the recoil cycle?

 

During the recoil cycle, if the bolt/carrier is lifting/bouncing above the ejector, you can recreate this by hand cycling. It is rare, but it does happen and will require the ejector to be welded to compensate for this.

 

With the dust cover off, slowy cycle the shotgun and lift up on the charging handle/carrier during the cycle and see if you can lift the shell above the ejector.

 

Jack

 

Jack, Yes I believe I am. If I lay my hand across the receiver at the rearmost travel of the charging handle and fire a shot, I get spanked by the charging handle quite sharply.

 

I cannot get the bolt high enough for the ejector to not hit the shell by hand cycling and pulling up. In fact I cannot feel any lateral play against the rails when pulling up. Here is an image of my ejector to bolt clearance.

 

IMG_20130720_083037_629_zps5e3011a6.jpg

 

I'm leaving for work now. I have to build a few fixtures and then my plan was to work on this. I can access the forum via my phone so I will check back in and can respond/post pictures through the day.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If its not extracting and you say an empty hull gets hung up on the next shell. I believe your extactor is weak or isnt engaging at all and its blowback that is helping with your extraction. Try shooting with a mag in and see if it hangs up. I think you just solved your own problem. Im going to go and cycle mine with an empty hull. I'll let you know the results

Link to post
Share on other sites

I just loaded an empty hull and it holds tight with no play and as it clears the chamber guides before it hits the ejector it holds in pretty good. If i push up from below it will snap out forcefully. With a loaded mag I can see it pre load on the shell and agains its tight and if i pull from the top its the same results.

I believe you have a bad extractor


i would meet one of the forum members that live closeby and try their bolt head and have them run yours to see if the problem transfers

Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be worth a try, but I have tested with no fore end, stock fore end, bottom rail only, etc.

 

I am curious, I did not notice before but the feed tab on the bolt has a slight groove in it to help retain the spent shell until it can impinge on the ejector. Mine was very faint and narrow, so I deepened and enlarged it slightly. Just a small change made a huge difference in how much force was required to dislodge the rim, so I am off to the range to test fire again.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Tested. No change. I firmly believe it's the ejector at this point. Either the bolt is raising and it does not sufficiently engage the cartridge during carrier movement, or, it is positioned too far to the rear, or it was undersized to begin with, or a combination of all three.

 

With the enhanced extraction above, the bolt maintains control over the hull through the entire carrier travel range. The next shell in the magazine does not force the spent hull away from the feed tab, both are securely engaged on the rim until it reaches the extractor.

 

When hand cycling a spent hull out of the chamber, I can not get it to do anything but dribble out of the ejection port, no matter how hard I rack it.

 

Secondly, there is more than sufficient carrier velocity to eject the shell, as my now bruised hand can attest, again trying to measure carrier travel.

 

Third, while apart at the shop, I inserted my DPH plug into the gas block when it was removed from the rifle. My previous practice was to screw it in all the way tight, back off to "6" and call that good. However, that position covers nearly half of the gas window in the block. Making one full turn out from that position to "6" allows full access to all 4 gas ports.

 

I'm going back to town to weld up the ejector. Both higher and longer. I see no other course of action at this time. Today was the slickest feeling the action has ever been, because while I had a machine running and nothing to do, I polished everything again, and when I was done I did a full 100% clean/degrease and blew everything out with compressed air. The shotgun wasn't this clean when I bought it. When cycling the first round in by hand, I can hear it chamber faster than it did yesterday.

 

Anyway, more to come after I get some welding done.

Edited by kuraki
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×
×
  • Create New...