At my wits end with my S-12

[kuraki 1]

80%. With my higher, longer ejector I'm at 80%. I have to go back to this morning Jack, when you asked about the bolt raising during the recoil cycle. I pulled on the carrier and it did not raise. I should have pulled on the bolt. There is enough slop in the bolt that when it impinges on the hammer, it does indeed raise. My higher, longer ejector I believe is masking that.

 

Currently reprofiling the hammer to limit or eliminate that bolt head movement. I'm actually confident for the first time in a long time that I might have this licked.

[Capt Nemo 882]

These might help! EDIT: Photobucket rotated the pic for some reason.

 

Here's a closeup of the bolt holding a hull in recoil position in the carrier.

 

 

Here's a closeup of the ejector up against a 6" rule.

 

Edited July 21, 2013 by Capt Nemo

[Capt Nemo 882]

 

 

 

You might hate this, but it might be your rail. I think the hull might be hitting on the sight and/or the rail by the trunion. I know the top cover slopes the same as the rail, but if that slope is further out, it may hit and bounce back. Check with just the top cover and original forearm.

 

Worth a shot!

[kuraki 1]

Thanks Nemo. I have tried. I give up. It's not worth it to me any more. Now I just need to decide whether to part it out or sell it as is. I'll buy a JM 930 and shoot tactical iron or scoped. I like tinkering and modifying guns, but this is ruining any enjoyment I might get from 3 gun, and 3 gun is the only reason I even own the thing.

[gunman1 1,753]

Thanks Nemo. I have tried. I give up. It's not worth it to me any more. Now I just need to decide whether to part it out or sell it as is. I'll buy a JM 930 and shoot tactical iron or scoped. I like tinkering and modifying guns, but this is ruining any enjoyment I might get from 3 gun, and 3 gun is the only reason I even own the thing.

 

Wow...that's too bad man, I was hoping for a great learning experience with this one. At any rate, I hope you stick around the forum, you sound like smart guy and have a lot to offer.

[kuraki 1]

Thanks. You all have been very helpful. You have a fantastic community here.

[SPL15 0]

 

 

 

 

It may just be the photo angle, but it appears the lower shell gatherer/pusher thingy is not profiled correctly... It should have a channel for the rim of the cartridge to recess into; your bolt doesn't appear to have this cut right. The groove in this part helps to keep the shell flush with the breach face during extraction, if it looses grip during extraction the shell will cant away from the ejector & may not kick out the empty with as much force as it should.

 

If you're already to the point of piecing it out, then you really don't have much to lose by SLIGHTLY making the proper notch in this piece and seeing what it does... Should be simple enough with a dremel, someone should be able to show a pic; it's a pretty shallow groove but it's there for a reason

Edited July 21, 2013 by SPL15

[kuraki 1]

Last post, page 1, I did just that. Helped, but not much.

[Capt Nemo 882]

Here's what things look like when the ejector is not being hit.

 

 

So you're hitting the ejector, but things are getting caught somewhere else. Magazine angle in the magwell? Rear of mag too high?

 

Have you tried marking your rounds yet? Here's what some of mine look like after firing. The black line to the primer is up, and all the rest are nicks and dents on the rims. The heavy areas are some pretty good bites on the rim. Doing this may help you to figure out where things may be hitting.

 

[Turbo.M777 11]

 

 

That knob on your sight is REALLY big and hanging over the ejection port. I have a chaos extended rail with a sight which had a similar knob (not even as big as yours) in that same spot. I tried all kinds of stuff, enlarged the ports, switched to aftermarket parts, etc. Soon as I took the sight off, it started working just fine. It may not be the root cause of your FTEs, but I would not be surprised at all if it was. I guarantee you either way that the knob hanging over there will contrbute to FTEs.

 

Try taking the forearm/quadrail off and firing. Just fire it naked without a handguard or anything on it. Forearm furniture is a fairly common cause of FTEs. It would be a good thing to eliminate even if thats not what it is.

 

Another idea, if you have a camera, is to record your gun ejecting shells while firing, or by cycling by hand. Then play it back in slow mo. that way you can see for sure if the charging handle is reaching all the way back, and you can see how the shells act when your gun tries to eject them. Thats what I did! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAIKt_ZAW30

 

DONT GIVE UP!! It will anger the gods.

Edited July 21, 2013 by Turbo.M777

[beefcakeb99 572]

wow don't give up... find factory replacements if need be, take all the junk off and test until you are numb...25-30 rounds isn't enough imo. it should be like 125-150. run that thing

Edited July 21, 2013 by beefcakeb0

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

First, your "classic FTE" pic is indeed looking to me like a classic pic of a round not ejected from:

> A gun without sufficient gas to cycle the bolt with enough force to snap the round off the ejector and throw it out.

> Gun with sufficient gas but has excess friction problems keeping it from moving in the fluid motion it needs to cycle low brass.

> Or a misalignment problem, or possible rare short ejector.

(Easy to tell if it's the ejector length by just holding the bolt all the way back while looking for the ejector to peek out past the bolt face.)

Misalignment can occur for a few different reasons and must be determined by slow hand cycling and wathing everything, as well as looking for telltale signs of paint wear, and actually feeling for resistance during the cycle.

 

Observations I immediately make are:

1. As was said, homing the gas chamber = BAD... You would have been perfectly fine using the factory gas puck. I won't use anything else in my guns besides the Tromix I have in one of mine because I needed it for compliance (which is nearly identical to factory), and in a very rare case I may put a lighter weight "booster" puck (either drilled to reduce weight or just use the one by MD Arms, just to see if that extra little bit of 'oomph' is enough to fix a borderline problem. That's water under the bridge now though so if anything try a different puck if you can find one or make one slightly larger. If I remember right my old CHAOS puck had a little tighter fit than factory... not certain if Cameron even makes them still but you could check, and ask for an O.D. on it. It may have even been a problem with the CSS puck itself. I know my buddy had one gun that was giving him problems like this with his nippled puck, and it was very tight fitting in the gas block when we checked it out. I literally had to knock it out with a hammer and dowel to get it unstuck. When I did a very thin flat band of steel came out with it, that I still to this day have no f'n clue what it is. I may even still have it somewhere. Anyway, we put a factory puck back in it and it was golden, once the magwell alignment problem was also fixed. No matter what puck you use though never hone out the gas block.

2. I can tell by looking at the second pic the bolt has not been re-profiled at all. You can polish it til the cows come home but it's not really helping anything much unless it gets re-profiled first. Lubricity is not the main problem. The main problem is bad geometry. That big "neck / shoulder" transition you see going from the bolt stem to the body of the bold head before the rotating head, is a very steep and sudden incline in just the wrong place to hinder cycling (over the top round in the mag) as well as loading a full mag on a closed bolt. When I re-profile my bolts I remove that steep shoulder and largely eliminate that difficult transition. This completely changes the amount of force it takes exerted on the carrier to fully cycle the bolt and carrier to eject the spent hull with authority. Additionally by removing the high spots on the bolt head and changing it's geometry to a round barrel instead of a bumpy mess, this also reduces much friction you get from the top round. Try cycling it or shooting it with no mag inserted, just hand feeding rounds. See if that helps any.

3. Also as mentioned before, check to make sure your extractor has full unfettered range of motion. Sometimes they screw that up and they can hang up.

 

Don't give up now though man you are almost there finally. The bolt re-profile and hammer (which I'm betting could also be improved on) are the two single biggest and best things you can do to ANY Saiga 12 to improve performance... period. That's factory N.I.B. or converted. Some people scoff at that but they haven't ever seen or felt the difference between one that has been gone through with a fine toothed comb, and that clunky junk that comes out of the box.

 

 

 

Before I leave for work I thought I would try a few rounds with my puck installed correctly, flat side to piston.

 

Setting 1 - Hull not withdrawn from chamber

Setting 2 - Same

Setting 4 - "classic" failure to eject (see picture)

Setting 5- Ejected first round, classic failure 2nd round

Setting 6- Classic failure

 

This is what I'm calling my classic failure. 90% of the time it's some variation of this. You'll see that the spent hull is free of the bolt, the bolt has begun it's travel forward and has started indexing the next shell into the chamber. I can replicate this failure by hand with empty hulls. I can't with loaded shells, and I believe the weight of shot is what makes a difference. If I extract an empty by hand, slowly, as soon as the open crimp clears the chamber, the next round in the magazine tips up and pushes the spent hull. This generally pushes the rim off of the feed tab on the bolt. It will continue to be retained somewhat by the extractor until it reaches the ejector, but because it is at and angle, the ejector just finishes what the fresh shell started, and pops it off of the extractor.

 

 

This image is just to show that I believe extractor tension appears normal, though I have no frame of reference. I have to snap the shell rim in and out by rocking against the feed nipple.

 

[Nephilim7 107]

Two things:

 

To test carrier travel, t is more comfortable to put a generous stretch of masking tape across the rearmost area the bolt charging handle travels and look for evidence of contact on the tape.

 

Secondly, use the number 2 setting of the factory plug. It is the most wide open gas setting you can get. Ditch the after market plug for now.

 

Also, did you do any work to the gas window on the bottom of the gas block? The groove inside the block near the threads should not be cut into.

 

When you get this thing figured out, you will LOVE this gun. Keep it up!

[gunman1 1,753]

It's a little late for all of this, the gun has been sold http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/89394-converted-saiga-12-basket-case/

[Nephilim7 107]

Sad... Maybe the new owner will speak up and let us know what fixes it.

[burntpowder 23]

Dang, I have a feeling this was so close to being fixed.....just needed a little more time.

But we all know the feeling when the end of your rope is met on a project.

Edited July 21, 2013 by burntpowder

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Noob mistake..... No doubt just another whole round of unjustly spread horror stories about the S-12 getting ready to start up...

[Lidocaine Looney 26]

Dang, wish I would have caught the FS thread.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

We should perpetuate this idea that the S12 is junk and can't be fixed so we can all pick up a few more at a good price. Lol. These S12's are no good, I tell ya what....

[gunman1 1,753]

Garbage I tell ya..........

[jdtravers 637]

No insult intended, but this was an excellent example of a little knowledge becoming a dangerous thing!!!

 

Jack

[Nephilim7 107]

No insult intended, but this was an excellent example of a little knowledge becoming a dangerous thing!!!

 

Jack

My father always told me: "A mind is a terrible thing."

 

Wish the guy had joined the forum sooner. Could have been a great contributor and had a great gun...

[YOT 3,743]

Noob mistake..... No doubt just another whole round of unjustly spread horror stories about the S-12 getting ready to start up...

 

Ya, but we can ignore those. Or prove them wrong. Take your pick.

[Sport Rescue 245]

I've never seen someone give up so quickly with the amount of knowledge and help he received from you guys. Such a waste. By my calculations, someone got a really good deal on a perfectly good shotgun. Still amazes me the wealth of knowledge and willingness to help someone that may or may not deserve it. I appreciate knowing where to go when in need of some help.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Hey man we have both seen em come -n- go for how long now? And how many of us have tried to help only to get no thanks and end up wasted time? This BS is why some people don't even bother any more and others like myself are like why....

Hey it's all good. Someone got a great deal on an S-12 with minimal probs and that's the best thing really IMO that could have come out of this given the situation. Just wish I could have helped. Got here late to the party... been busy.

 

 

Noob mistake..... No doubt just another whole round of unjustly spread horror stories about the S-12 getting ready to start up...

 

Ya, but we can ignore those. Or prove them wrong. Take your pick.

 

[shifty_85 20]

my vote is the little dust cover thing in between the springs. try to take that out and leave the dust cover it self off. i bet it will cycle.

 

if not it may be hitting your scope knob.

 

take a video from the side doesnt have to be slow im sure people here know how to slow it down.

 

also i see you have a DPH plug as well. when you screw it all the way down to start what number is the first click? mine is flush between 3-4 first click is 4. low brass will not cycle 4-6 on the first go. i start and 1-4 it will not cycle on the next thread 5 is hit and miss and 6 runs low brass all day long.

 

if it does not run with the dust cover and the little dust thingy off the spring try taking the scope off if with all that off it still does it id say its a gas issue IMO but there are lots of good posts in here im sure one of them will hit it on the head.

 

im just leaning towards dust cover and little thing on spring because in your classic fail pic it looks like the haul is hitting the dust thingy on the springs.

Edited July 22, 2013 by shifty_85

[gunfun 3,931]

Sad... Maybe the new owner will speak up and let us know what fixes it.

 

I understand the OP's frustration had reached it's limits, but this is a shame. He will go on cursing saigas for years. And in fairness, his gun should have worked from the box, and it didn't. Shame on any enablers who make excuses for that. But it is also a shame to miss out on the best experiences because you aren't willing to do the right work to fix minor problems. That and blundering about on your own before consulting the obvious knowledge base. I wouldn't think of trying to work out a complex carburetor problem on my bike without going to the model specific forum. If I had a broken AR, I would go to ARFcom or something. ... IMO this is a timing problem mostly, he came here after he had given up rather than before.

 

izhmash needs to get their act to gether. they could sell 5 times more firearms if their guns worked 98% of the time out of the box. It wouldn't take any more expense or changes. All they would need to do is throw away all their bits that are not an exact size around .080" or so, and make a jig that clamps to the barrel to hold the drill in alignment and put 5 uniform holes in every single gun. Zero increased cost or labor. 25% less problems. 500% more sales. Done.

[Nephilim7 107]

 

 

Sad... Maybe the new owner will speak up and let us know what fixes it.

I understand the OP's frustration had reached it's limits, but this is a shame. He will go on cursing saigas for years. And in fairness, his gun should have worked from the box, and it didn't. Shame on any enablers who make excuses for that. But it is also a shame to miss out on the best experiences because you aren't willing to do the right work to fix minor problems. That and blundering about on your own before consulting the obvious knowledge base. I wouldn't think of trying to work out a complex carburetor problem on my bike without going to the model specific forum. If I had a broken AR, I would go to ARFcom or something. ... IMO this is a timing problem mostly, he came here after he had given up rather than before.

 

izhmash needs to get their act to gether. they could sell 5 times more firearms if their guns worked 98% of the time out of the box. It wouldn't take any more expense or changes. All they would need to do is throw away all their bits that are not an exact size around .080" or so, and make a jig that clamps to the barrel to hold the drill in alignment and put 5 uniform holes in every single gun. Zero increased cost or labor. 25% less problems. 500% more sales. Done.

Isn't Izmash "nationalized"? I would expect that it is. In which case it's, "good enough for government work."

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Well it's a shame he didn't at least give it one more day but it's done now. Maybe the member who bought it will at least benefit from this thread and be able to get it going again. If so he got a steal. At the same time if this person does step forward, takes the advice offered here, and it does fix the problem, then hopefully that will be the end of it. Unless the enlarged gas chamber or ejector were just too much... Neither of these things needed to be, or should have been done. He said it would "kick shells out at least 10 feet by hand cycling the bolt".... (before that he said it would "barely dribble the hulls out no matter how hard he racked It"...) Well which is it? Am I missing something here?

Jack is spot on with his comment about "a little knowledge can be dangerous". IMO some of these 'how to' or DIY threads on the forum need to be hidden from view, or PW protected maybe where nobody can gain access to them without having a specified post count here, or some kind of filter to keep people who haven't even discussed their problem children with us before going and butchering a perfectly good gun. In fact even some of the DIY stickies are outdated and should be removed IMO... or perhaps moved to their own section, grouped together with a DISCLAIMER in big letters in the header. Something like..."Do NOT attempt any of these DIY fixes without first spending time reading more than one source of info and asking questions about anything questionable. Modify at your own risk." Helping people by providing technical how to threads is noble and helpful to some... but can be very dangerous to others. Just thinking out loud here because it has been a big problem for some new members coming in.

 

Gunfun mentioned "timing" as a possible problem with this gun. It reminded me of something I meant to say but forgot to mention. The OP said ... "I've polished the shoulder of the bolt that engages the camming cut,..."

THIS is one thing that needs to be totally stricken from the archives here. People read that and go to town on the camming surfaces of the bolt and the carrier with a dremel, and completely ruin the gun in the process. These areas don't need ANY mods. They should be left alone, ESPECIALLY the corners. When I polish a set of parts, I do some very light buffing on the bolt cam and that's ALL. If anything I will remove small burrs on the outward facing surface and polish there. I don't touch the sides or "shoulders" with a polishing bit. Years ago maybe, but not now. These areas should at the most be lightly buffed, no steel removed, timing not changed... period. The cut in the carrier needs no modifications either. I get some sets in here for polishing that I have to just send back because they are already ruined from people getting carried away with these DIY dremel mods. The carriers are so dented and damaged inside the channel, from all the slop created by the ruined bolt cam, that the two parts are literally eating themselves and each other up, every time the weapon is fired.

 

Other possible problems...

 

"I drilled and tapped the bolt carrier and installed a left side charging handle."

This added weight to the bolt carrier, possibly requiring more than the normal amount of gas (port sizes)considered sufficient.

 

"Milled the dust cover for the charging handle"

Was the handle hitting the dust cover at all here? Even if pulled upward?

 

"Honed the gas block/gas chamber (where the puck is) since it was slightly out of round and the CSS puck bound up inside"

I still don't believe the gas block was the fatal flaw here, more likely the after market puck. The only thing that causes a gas block to get out of round is warping from welding on it. Also remember the OP was running the CSS puck backwards til the very end. That little titty on there was getting struck by the damned gas piston (op rod), most likely kicking it off center and screwing things up that way... with the carrier travel AND the puck on the return stroke...

 

"Drilled the 3 existing gas ports out to 0.090" and deburred the holes"

"Drilled a 4th gas hole and deburred."

How large was the 4th port? Even though he enlarged them all / added one the gun could still be under gassed with the added CH weight, and the friction that was still plaguing the weapons action. Add the fact that the gas block had been modified, the obvious puck probs, = recipe for failure = need more gas.

 

"Polish job on the moving parts"

Polishing without re-profiling is over rated and not that effective...

 

"Enlarged the #6 setting on the DPH plug to accomodate new gas hole"

Not necessary. If so then the port was drilled way too far forward and probably also into the ring groove... the infamous "D Mod" <face palm...>

 

Enlarged the clearance hole in the gas block to accomodate new gas hole

See above...

 

 

Multi quote, nice function.

 

 

puc flat side towards the back of the gun?

No, the nipple is toward the piston

 

You do not need the ejector mod. You have other problems that need to be fixed prior to even contemplating this. I have welded up the ejectors on some of the competition guns years ago, and that was only because the factory ejectors were not to spec. It is not necessary with a properly tuned/set up Saiga Shotgun.

 

Both the Barrel and the Gas Block are chrome plated. If you removed material from the gas block, by honing, you may have gone outside acceptable tollerences.

 

It is always something simple, but hard to figure out if you don't have the experinece:)

I concede that it is possible, but would argue it was out of tolerance initially. There is currenly 0.002" clearance between the ID of the gas chamber and the OD of the puck. The puck would not pass -period- prior to honing. You could force it through with a hammer and wood dowel. The original puck had more like 0.007" clearance, and passed with slight resistance.

( SHOULD HAVE LEFT WELL ENOUGH ALONE HERE FOR SURE.)

I believe my ejector may very well be out of spec, but I have no way of knowing what spec is, either length or position, because I have nothing to compare it to. Again, the chief malfunction seems to be that the bolt loses the spent hull prior to engaging the ejector when it is disrupted by the next shell in the magazine.

(Proper re-profiling of the bolt greatly reduces interference with the top round during the cycle... THIS should have been done first.)

 

 

I would bet honing the gas block/chamber is the major cause of your problem.

See above. Gun would not run in stock form either. There has been literally no change in function in any step I've taken. The only reason I still own the thing is because it tricks me into believing it's fixed, by running well for 25-30 rounds during a test, and then choking every other round the next day at a match.

 

Conflicting information... If it will run well for 25 or 30 rds, it should keep running. Also the ejector obviously is just fine and needs to be left alone at this point.

 

Tested. No change. I firmly believe it's the ejector at this point. Either the bolt is raising and it does not sufficiently engage the cartridge during carrier movement, or, it is positioned too far to the rear, or it was undersized to begin with, or a combination of all three.

 

With the enhanced extraction above, the bolt maintains control over the hull through the entire carrier travel range. The next shell in the magazine does not force the spent hull away from the feed tab, both are securely engaged on the rim until it reaches the extractor.

 

When hand cycling a spent hull out of the chamber, I can not get it to do anything but dribble out of the ejection port, no matter how hard I rack it.

(More conflicting info... confusing...)

 

Secondly, there is more than sufficient carrier velocity to eject the shell, as my now bruised hand can attest, again trying to measure carrier travel.

(A bit extreme IMO, never tried this on purpose.)

 

Third, while apart at the shop, I inserted my DPH plug into the gas block when it was removed from the rifle. My previous practice was to screw it in all the way tight, back off to "6" and call that good. However, that position covers nearly half of the gas window in the block. Making one full turn out from that position to "6" allows full access to all 4 gas ports.

(Sometimes the gas block threads are off and the gas regulator (plug) needs an extra turn outward. Is this why the DPH plug was modified?)

 

I'm going back to town to weld up the ejector. Both higher and longer. I see no other course of action at this time. Today was the slickest feeling the action has ever been, because while I had a machine running and nothing to do, I polished everything again, and when I was done I did a full 100% clean/degrease and blew everything out with compressed air. The shotgun wasn't this clean when I bought it. When cycling the first round in by hand, I can hear it chamber faster than it did yesterday.

 

Anyway, more to come after I get some welding done.

 

 

 

Multi quote, nice function.

 

 

puc flat side towards the back of the gun?

No, the nipple is toward the piston

 

Isn't the nipple supposed to go forward? (if im looking at the right puc and piston being the op rod)

 

(from CSS website) CSS Performance Puc installs easily with the flat side towards the back of the gun and the "Nose" towards the Front.

 

Anyways i don't think that'd be the main cause of all your problems since it was doing it from stock. Post pictures of EVERYTHING from as many angles as you can. There are quite a few guys on here that are pretty much wizards when i comes to troubleshooting and building ridiculous running S12s.

 

Facepalm. I always thought the puck was to engage the piston for a longer impulse.

 

some thoughts:

 

#1, I'd tend to listen to Jack Travers. IMO it would be cheaper and more productive to send him the gun than to write it off. He builds race gun for a living after all.

 

#2 You are talking about tuning the ejector. Do you know for certain that the extractor is properly hooking the shells? If there is a weak spring or a deformity or maybe even some junk in there holding the extractor open partly or intermittantly, this might explain your issues.

 

#3 If I read things correctly, you have 4 ports at .090". A normal range that people have found to work is between 4 at .078" and 4 @.093". While I'd look at the next comment before enlarging, It wouldn't write the gun off before opening them up more. Your points about the bolt making full stroke are noted and have some logic to them.

 

#4 We don't know what friction misalignment or binding is going on in the action or what you have done to mitigate it. This can be in the gas tube, in the rails, in the timing chanel in the carrier, in the engagement of the lugs to the breach face, in the spring assembly, in the hammer profile, in a possible contact between magazine and bolt carrier if there is slop...

1-I'm listening to all of you. This is the most and best advice I've gotten on the S-12 and I can't believe the response on the forum. I wish I'd come here a year ago.

2-Very good point and well taken. Like the other member who mentioned checking rim engagement/fit on the bolt to shell base, I will look at this first today.

3-Noted

4-All I can say, having never been able to handle another S-12, is that it hand cycles quite smoothly. I have polished the area of the bolt and carrier that ride on the hammer during reset, as well as the area that rides over the next shell. I've polished the shoulder of the bolt that engages the camming cut, and I've polished the hammer face. One thing I would note, leading towards your extractor point, is that when hand cycling rounds in and out of the gun, I don't have the ejection problem. In fact, I can eject a round 10 feet by hand cycling if I try. ( <<<< WAIT HOLD ON A SEC... What? But I thought you just said.... dribble ?)

Even then, I'm not cycling the bolt carrier as fast as when under gas pressure, so that leads me to believe that something about the gas impulse leads to losing control of the spent hull that doesn't occur when hand cycling.

 

I'm really curious to know who bought this gun because hopefully this can still be worked out. I would personally like to see close up photos of the mods done to the hammer, and especially the bolt and carrier's camming surfaces.

 

Oh well no more time for this right now. Hopefully this helps someone.

[Nephilim7 107]

Big thanks to Shannon and Jack for their outpouring of wisdom in this thread. I have learned a lot. Good stuff there.