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What do you get when you give a bunch of engineers $80K and a simple mission? More proof Hastings might not have been driving.

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/07/26/the-terrifying-5-minute-video-showing-how-its-possible-to-hack-a-car-and-make-it-do-some-freaky-things/

 

Now before you scream tinfoil, my oldest has an '03 CTS with traction control. With a diagnostic box hooked up, I can control the brakes on all four wheels......independently. I can also control the throttle, lights, windows, sunroof, radio, seats, and climate control via the diagnostic software. He does have power steering, so that can't be hacked yet. However, Nissan has a 100% drive by wire car out in Japan, and it has sensors to prevent a collision. Hack that bad boy, and the drive could go from mild to wild real fast.

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Its not tin foil its just the way the things are designed... badly.

 

LEOs want to be able to control vehicles nothing new there, that untended consequences occur from bad ideas is only natural law in action.

 

And yes a few have kicked around the odd matter of Hastings and his magic exploding Benz.

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I'm not sure you can call modern car design bad. I mean, I'm sure that a car company could make a better,

less penetrable, more protected electronics system, but it would price itself out of the market, and you,

nor anyone else, would not buy it.

 

Also, I'd like to know what range their "wireless" is using. It's physically impossible to wirelessly hack a car

for any real purpose if you have to stay within bluetooth distance of it (six feet).

 

So, while this is a cool achievement, I'm not seeing how it equates to massive governmental conspiracy

or a sudden danger of being hacked. Cars have veered off course and blown up since time immemorial;

put holes in the lines and a bomb in the trunk.

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It not a conspiracy its been on the agenda for a long time now, being able to shut down a vehicle you are chasing is a huge deal.

 

Is this a result of it? No idea, do know getting through OnStar has been put forward ad nauseam.

 

I would say more danger would be from the criminal element than anything else, doesn't take much imagination to see the problem.

Edited by Rhodes1968
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There are still ways to make your car safe and secure. Many of them can be ordered without all the extra jazz. Some of the easiest ones to play with are the first ones to adapt wifi, bluetooth, gps, cdma, gsm, etc. Bluetooth is a great thing but expect as much privacy as if you were using a CB radio.

 

Even the new smart phones can be modified by software or even hardware to keep your privacy.

 

Toyota is very advanced in electronics so guess what you can get away with on the OnStar system?

 

LEO's have had the tech to stop your car completely for years. One of the coolest ones shoots out of the front of the car and when it gets under your car, sends a jolt from a huge capacitor, frying all ECMs.

 

What's most spooky is that these guys got a grant for something a teen age kid with a laptop does for fun after school.

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There are still ways to make your car safe and secure. Many of them can be ordered without all the extra jazz. Some of the easiest ones to play with are the first ones to adapt wifi, bluetooth, gps, cdma, gsm, etc. Bluetooth is a great thing but expect as much privacy as if you were using a CB radio.

 

Even the new smart phones can be modified by software or even hardware to keep your privacy.

 

Toyota is very advanced in electronics so guess what you can get away with on the OnStar system?

 

LEO's have had the tech to stop your car completely for years. One of the coolest ones shoots out of the front of the car and when it gets under your car, sends a jolt from a huge capacitor, frying all ECMs.

 

What's most spooky is that these guys got a grant for something a teen age kid with a laptop does for fun after school.

Fine and jim dandy for ECU controlled vehicles. Mine still uses points and condenser ignition. I already have a bypass circuit on a switch wired in.

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There are still ways to make your car safe and secure. Many of them can be ordered without all the extra jazz. Some of the easiest ones to play with are the first ones to adapt wifi, bluetooth, gps, cdma, gsm, etc. Bluetooth is a great thing but expect as much privacy as if you were using a CB radio.

 

Even the new smart phones can be modified by software or even hardware to keep your privacy.

 

Toyota is very advanced in electronics so guess what you can get away with on the OnStar system?

 

LEO's have had the tech to stop your car completely for years. One of the coolest ones shoots out of the front of the car and when it gets under your car, sends a jolt from a huge capacitor, frying all ECMs.

 

What's most spooky is that these guys got a grant for something a teen age kid with a laptop does for fun after school.

Fine and jim dandy for ECU controlled vehicles. Mine still uses points and condenser ignition. I already have a bypass circuit on a switch wired in.

 

I have an old GMC that does that trick! Always good to have an old mad max vehicle around! :)

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I forgot to mention, the same trick works on the early HEI ignition as well(old tower style coils with hardwire hookups for power). My '81 Toy truck runs better on bypass than through the HEI.

Edited by Lone Eagle
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I'm looking into buying a old vehicle I can actually repair myself like in the old days. My first ride was a long bed 1968 Dodge pick up and I did all the work on it myself. I cant do much on my current ride even with a code reader to tell me whats wrong...

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Contrary to the press, OnStar CAN be disabled. Find the box, unplug the antenna, plug in a 50 ohm 5 watt resistor. Easy peasy. No antenna=no signal=nohijack. Of course, no car cellphone either.

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Contrary to the press, OnStar CAN be disabled. Find the box, unplug the antenna, plug in a 50 ohm 5 watt resistor. Easy peasy. No antenna=no signal=nohijack. Of course, no car cellphone either.

 

 

Easier to just pull the power connector on the box in the trunk.

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The GPS NAVSTAR system is broadcast on two bands. R and P. One is for Military use and the other for civillian. The military can shut down the civilian version at an time. If there are hackers that can get into the military's band they must be damn good. On a plus side, I would be fairly certain that our military employs some of the best computer experts in the word to ensure that that never happens. The civilian band might be less protected.

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Contrary to the press, OnStar CAN be disabled. Find the box, unplug the antenna, plug in a 50 ohm 5 watt resistor. Easy peasy. No antenna=no signal=nohijack. Of course, no car cellphone either.

 

 

Easier to just pull the power connector on the box in the trunk.

 

You'll throw a code and the car will run like crap. I tried it on my 2010 Camaro SS.

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Contrary to the press, OnStar CAN be disabled. Find the box, unplug the antenna, plug in a 50 ohm 5 watt resistor. Easy peasy. No antenna=no signal=nohijack. Of course, no car cellphone either.

 

 

Easier to just pull the power connector on the box in the trunk.

 

You'll throw a code and the car will run like crap. I tried it on my 2010 Camaro SS.

 

 

It didn't throw any codes on my 2007 Chevy Impala.... mileage isn't so good though.

 

I don't see how that could have affected it, but maybe I'll plug it back in for a few days and see if the mileage improves.

Will piss me off if it does.... no reason for that at all other than to penalize those who don't play along.

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Contrary to the press, OnStar CAN be disabled. Find the box, unplug the antenna, plug in a 50 ohm 5 watt resistor. Easy peasy. No antenna=no signal=nohijack. Of course, no car cellphone either.

 

 

Easier to just pull the power connector on the box in the trunk.

 

You'll throw a code and the car will run like crap. I tried it on my 2010 Camaro SS.

 

 

It didn't throw any codes on my 2007 Chevy Impala.... mileage isn't so good though.

 

I don't see how that could have affected it, but maybe I'll plug it back in for a few days and see if the mileage improves.

Will piss me off if it does.... no reason for that at all other than to penalize those who don't play along.

 

When you hook it back up, be sure you pull your ECU fuses for 30 min or so to allow it to reset.

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I do a lot of my own work on my trucks, 78 & 79 Fords and my 94 GMC. My favorite car was a 71 - the most advanced thing on it was a mechanical solenoid. I had the high beam solenoid go out one night (stuck on) - pulled into a rest area, pulled the solenoid apart, got the parts meshing the way it should and re-greased - problem solved.

 

My main problem with older vehicles now is the lack of regular gas, it is damn near impossible to find. Long term options including getting rid of the EPA and the communists in power who insist on putting ethanol in gas, rebuilding engines and fuel delivery systems to deal with ethanol or pouring in an ethanol cleaner / enzyme every time you fill up.

 

At some point I will buy an even older truck and rebuilding it from the frame up including making sure the fuel system and engine can deal with ethanol if that is all there is.

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While it is technically possible to affect the GPS on ships and planes I think this article makes it seem a little too simple to control their movements enough to wreak real havoc. Ships, which I operate, and planes have a myriad of systems including human beings that would detect bogus information from GPS systems in a pretty short time, in which case the GPS would simply be turned off. There is definitely some danger in having the GPS affected during an autoland of an airliner in fog but even then there are safeguards and redundancies in place. I'm not too concerned (yet) about the control systems in cars, either. In general it is all improving the way we drive as well as safety but we have to be on guard for those trying to take advantage and abuse, just like in everything else.

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A bit over the head of your average member of Anonymous but not for the largest threats of State hacking.

Well withing the reach of say China or Iran.

In particular when a weak link gets complacent.

 

I remember similar warnings about the Space Shuttle systems when it first began flying, the vulnerabilities were more or less minimized by NASA and well eventually...

 

"The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." - Scotty

Edited by Rhodes1968
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While it is technically possible to affect the GPS on ships and planes I think this article makes it seem a little too simple to control their movements enough to wreak real havoc. Ships, which I operate, and planes have a myriad of systems including human beings that would detect bogus information from GPS systems in a pretty short time, in which case the GPS would simply be turned off. There is definitely some danger in having the GPS affected during an autoland of an airliner in fog but even then there are safeguards and redundancies in place. I'm not too concerned (yet) about the control systems in cars, either. In general it is all improving the way we drive as well as safety but we have to be on guard for those trying to take advantage and abuse, just like in everything else.

 

 

Bigger problem is that a lot of marine GPS and nav equipment is just shoddily made, especially the software.

 

I work for a company that operates about 20 container ships, and a handful of them have what are supposed to be mission-critical GPS units. They link into major navigational systems to provide GPS location to radar, electronic charts, etc. - very important systems. Yet, the GPS units contain a serious software bug that will randomly drop the GPS NMEA data to these sensors, and suddenly the radar and other equipment has no idea where the ship is and cannot accurately plot a position. The GPS unit has to be completely reset to factory defaults and reprogrammed when this occurs. The manufacturer refuses to admit that there is a bug in the units, or offer a fix, because they are a couple years out of warranty. These units are less than ten years old.

 

So here we are planning to replace the faulty GPS head units. Planned obsolescence.

 

I run into this sort of crap all the time in the marine industry with various pieces of important equipment that is supposed to work 100% of the time. I can't imagine that it's much different in other industries.

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A bit over the head of your average member of Anonymous but not for the largest threats of State hacking.

Well withing the reach of say China or Iran.

In particular when a weak link gets complacent.

 

I remember similar warnings about the Space Shuttle systems when it first began flying, the vulnerabilities were more or less minimized by NASA and well eventually...

 

"The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." - Scotty

 

 

Neither Space Shuttle crash was caused by computer programming. The first was caused by launching outside of safe paramenters.

The second was caused by enviro-morons forcing them to use sub-standard materials on the fuel tank.

 

Space Shuttle code was incredible in how meticulous it was. Recommend you read about it.

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While it is technically possible to affect the GPS on ships and planes I think this article makes it seem a little too simple to control their movements enough to wreak real havoc. Ships, which I operate, and planes have a myriad of systems including human beings that would detect bogus information from GPS systems in a pretty short time, in which case the GPS would simply be turned off. There is definitely some danger in having the GPS affected during an autoland of an airliner in fog but even then there are safeguards and redundancies in place. I'm not too concerned (yet) about the control systems in cars, either. In general it is all improving the way we drive as well as safety but we have to be on guard for those trying to take advantage and abuse, just like in everything else.

 

 

Bigger problem is that a lot of marine GPS and nav equipment is just shoddily made, especially the software.

 

I work for a company that operates about 20 container ships, and a handful of them have what are supposed to be mission-critical GPS units. They link into major navigational systems to provide GPS location to radar, electronic charts, etc. - very important systems. Yet, the GPS units contain a serious software bug that will randomly drop the GPS NMEA data to these sensors, and suddenly the radar and other equipment has no idea where the ship is and cannot accurately plot a position. The GPS unit has to be completely reset to factory defaults and reprogrammed when this occurs. The manufacturer refuses to admit that there is a bug in the units, or offer a fix, because they are a couple years out of warranty. These units are less than ten years old.

 

So here we are planning to replace the faulty GPS head units. Planned obsolescence.

 

I run into this sort of crap all the time in the marine industry with various pieces of important equipment that is supposed to work 100% of the time. I can't imagine that it's much different in other industries.

 

 

I'm sure there is a lot of crap out there but that should have no effect on any ship being able to plot a position and intended course well enough to stay well clear of any significant incident. Radar still works without GPS input, celestial navigation is still available, and all the old methods of safe navigation that were employed before fancy electronics still apply. If anyone lets their equipment steer them into trouble they just aren't paying attention. I'm fortunate enough to have the best systems in the world and problems pretty rare, but of course the vulnerabilities on any one ship are directly dependent on how much the company has invested in quality equipment and crew.

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While it is technically possible to affect the GPS on ships and planes I think this article makes it seem a little too simple to control their movements enough to wreak real havoc. Ships, which I operate, and planes have a myriad of systems including human beings that would detect bogus information from GPS systems in a pretty short time, in which case the GPS would simply be turned off. There is definitely some danger in having the GPS affected during an autoland of an airliner in fog but even then there are safeguards and redundancies in place. I'm not too concerned (yet) about the control systems in cars, either. In general it is all improving the way we drive as well as safety but we have to be on guard for those trying to take advantage and abuse, just like in everything else.

 

 

Bigger problem is that a lot of marine GPS and nav equipment is just shoddily made, especially the software.

 

I work for a company that operates about 20 container ships, and a handful of them have what are supposed to be mission-critical GPS units. They link into major navigational systems to provide GPS location to radar, electronic charts, etc. - very important systems. Yet, the GPS units contain a serious software bug that will randomly drop the GPS NMEA data to these sensors, and suddenly the radar and other equipment has no idea where the ship is and cannot accurately plot a position. The GPS unit has to be completely reset to factory defaults and reprogrammed when this occurs. The manufacturer refuses to admit that there is a bug in the units, or offer a fix, because they are a couple years out of warranty. These units are less than ten years old.

 

So here we are planning to replace the faulty GPS head units. Planned obsolescence.

 

I run into this sort of crap all the time in the marine industry with various pieces of important equipment that is supposed to work 100% of the time. I can't imagine that it's much different in other industries.

 

 

I'm sure there is a lot of crap out there but that should have no effect on any ship being able to plot a position and intended course well enough to stay well clear of any significant incident. Radar still works without GPS input, celestial navigation is still available, and all the old methods of safe navigation that were employed before fancy electronics still apply. If anyone lets their equipment steer them into trouble they just aren't paying attention. I'm fortunate enough to have the best systems in the world and problems pretty rare, but of course the vulnerabilities on any one ship are directly dependent on how much the company has invested in quality equipment and crew.

 

 

Just two words... Exxon Valdez.

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1. It seems like somone is using what is called the "Captains Program." Which is GPS software integrated into electronic or digital charts. And it also sounds like they are using a corrupt version. Which is shitty.

2. Radar navigation is next to useless unless your within range of navigation aids ie. broadcast stations or recognizable landmarks which look nothing like they do in real life when you see them on your radar scope. Ever..

3. There are other means of navigation. Loran C was used up to a decade or so ago, so its pretty worthless now. Charts are fine as long as you have a starting point. Without one you CAN NOT Dead Recon out at all.

4. When i went through QuarterMaster A School a long time ago (Navigation school) they did not teach celestial navigation what so ever. Also, if you deem yourself a rocket scientist and think that its easy you better have all your volumes needed to accurately plot your course using only celestial nav. Its that hard. You just cant break out your alidade or sextant and start plotting sun lines.

5. GPS is the most accurate and reliable when combined with up to date charts, Dead Reconing, and up to date software. Thats really it. Trying to nuke it just doesnt work.


Also when it comes to GPS, the receivers are getting they're data from the Satellites. For you to give them corrupt data, you would have to send corrupt date to the NAVSTAR system and then receiving ships or planes would get the corrupt data from there. So, unless your hackers are better then the U.S. Military's hackers your not compromising the system. Your not going to tight beam that data directly to the ship.


 

While it is technically possible to affect the GPS on ships and planes I think this article makes it seem a little too simple to control their movements enough to wreak real havoc. Ships, which I operate, and planes have a myriad of systems including human beings that would detect bogus information from GPS systems in a pretty short time, in which case the GPS would simply be turned off. There is definitely some danger in having the GPS affected during an autoland of an airliner in fog but even then there are safeguards and redundancies in place. I'm not too concerned (yet) about the control systems in cars, either. In general it is all improving the way we drive as well as safety but we have to be on guard for those trying to take advantage and abuse, just like in everything else.

 

All U.S. Military vessels use the encrypted band of NAVSTAR and have dedicated Quartermasters (Navigators) who every second of every minute are plotting the course of the vessel either with standard charts or electronic charts in the event that the NAVSTAR should fail. Once these vessels get out to sea they go to a 30 minute plot/DR. The closer to shore they switch to a 15min/5min/1min plot.

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Just two words..Drunk Driver.

Yep complacent weak link. World is full of them.

 

If life teaches us nothing else it should be that things that should not and could not happen, do so every damned day. As for who has the better hackers... who knows until its really put to the test.

 

Besides if the article is truthful they already did it to commercial systems in a focused "attack" not an across the board onslaught against the entire system.

Edited by Rhodes1968
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"2. Radar navigation is next to useless unless your within range of navigation aids ie. broadcast stations or recognizable landmarks which look nothing like they do in real life when you see them on your radar scope."

 

I might disagree with this one a a little bit. There are lots of times you have nothing on your scope, however radar is usually the best indication of approaching hazards to navigation and for that purpose it is always in use regardless. So I would never call it next to useless in any situation. The impetus for this whole conversation was the theory stated in the Fox news article that disrupting GPS reception could "hijack" a ship and cause a catastrophe and that just isn't going to happen. Try to steer me toward rocks, another vessel, or anything else and me or my officers are immediately going to see that something is amiss and do any number of things to intervene up to and including shutting down all power and dropping anchor. There is no such thing as a remote controllable ship.

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It is no theory that is exactly what they did.

 

Of course the crew was aware of it and in fact feedback from the crew was that of unease over just how much control was achieved.

 

I used to work on radars, APN 59s, they are very limited close to the point of radiation just the nature of the beast, close returns are by necessity squelched.

 

All these things you say that would be done if you became aware of a problem are true, if you are aware.

 

Complacency is ever the friend of the hacker and that IS going to happen.

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