Bear killed with AK-74

[MT Predator 2,294]

 

 

I think a water dropped hard cast slug out of a 12 gauge would be more than effective. my cousin took down a bear with a compound bow last year.

granted it was a small black bear in a tree ..................................lol. it made excelent burgers.

My brother kills a Black Bear (big ones, he is picky), every year with a bow. And your point is?

that its doable.......thought that was pretty obvious........

You stick them with an arrow, they run away mostly because the sound startles them. They don't die right away. They have to bleed out. My brother shot a big boar one year, let him go to bleed out. Started getting dark. He called my Dad and his partner from the PD to come help him track and find it. They were out there with flashlights and .40 cal pistols, all three Glocks. My brother tracked the blood trail into a thicket and found the bear. After about two hours of bleeding from a hit to the vital organs with a really nasty broadhead, this 400 lb Black Bear stood up on his hinds and presented a target for which my brother took and dumped him with a controlled pair to the chest. Even Black Bears are tough and not to be under estimated.

[MT Predator 2,294]

Most ceramic plates are rated for five rounds of 30-06 AP IIRC. (Always thought that as being overly optimistic)

When I was still Active Duty and pulled Range Duty to qualify shooters. We used to bring out old school flak jackets, kevlar helmets, and newer ceramic plates from our supply guys that were slightly damaged from handling, usually chipped corners, for a little demo/show and tell to show them what our rounds would actually do to the stuff. M855 5.56mm will leave an ESAPI plate in pieces after a handful of rounds. I have set up a new paper target behind one to check for pass throughs and it took a bunch more to actually break it down enough to let rounds through which was surprising as the plate appeared to be FUBAR after a few rounds.

[gunfun 3,931]

Heres a few Brenneke slugs I was able to dig out of the bank today. I only shot five today, and the other 3 were too far into the bank to get to without a shovel.

 

WP_20130803_002.jpg

 

Interesting.

I've dug a few out of wood spools that were used for targets in the Dillingham NRA range. Most of them were more intact than those. Dirt or mud must do more to them than wood. Brenneke also sells LE versions that are harder alloy and designed not to deform at all. This is also the thinking behind the Dixie Slug Co products.

 

As for the black bear stuff posted above. They are what lives around me now, although I have never encountered one down here in the lower 48s. A few years ago one came down into the orchards of Selah WA near where I lived at the time, and another one in White Swan, a nearby Rez town. Both of them ate a few pet dogs and chased agricultural workers. The one in Selah became a local celebrity called "the pear bear" all while chasing people around. Some old guy got his grandson out of school, and went to a friend's property and tree'd it. The grandson shot it and had the tags to do so. You can guess what was said about that, and also that no-one who lived in the immediate area felt too sorry for the bear.

 

I've always kept up on any recordings of bear attack statistics and articles. The thing with black bears is that they are testier. Brown bears are big enough not to feel very threatened. Black bears are more insecure. So a black bear is more likely to attack you. Statistically, more people survive black bear attacks than brown, however if a brown bear attack has been going on for more than a few minutes, you will probably will survive. They tend to chew on your butt and head and roll you around then bury you under leaves and trash for a couple days. Most people survive this. A lot of the black bear attacks are related to either surprising the bear or being dumb and taking an idiot dog with you. The little yappy dog will harrass a black bear and then go hide under it's owner's legs...

[MT Predator 2,294]

The little yappy dog will harrass a black bear and then go hide under it's owner's legs...

Just be able to outrun the yappy little dog!

[SwissyJim 117]

Any time a bear is killed and self defense is claimed you are going to have people trying to second guess it, or argue that it could have been avoided. But as you were kind of getting at in your post above, the real vocal/serious criticism isn't going to come from our side. At the end of the day, putting aside differences of opinion on avoidance or caliber choice, nearly all who are actually from here will agree that was a good shoot.

 

And with all due regard, hiking for miles down the trail yelling "hey bear" the whole time isn't realistic, nor is it actually done, in my experience. Most of us will intentionally make some noise and/or yell when we reach a brushy area, or one with limited visibility, but otherwise you are going to yell yourself hoarse by the time you are done hiking. And that's just a recommended practice for hiking or fishing. Nobody expects a hunter (no matter what you are hunting) to stomp around the woods making noise to scare off the bears, because it scares everything else, too. Yet nobody would call a hunter an idiot for killing a bear in self defense under otherwise identical circumstances.

 

What the guy actually claims to have done seems pretty reasonable to me, given that 99% of bears will run away as soon as they become aware of a human presence.

 

 

Well, I never said yell HEY BEAR for miles. I said get their attention before you see each other. Hell, I hike for miles, open country and brush, and I whistle regardless. I talk to myself (and sometimes answer). And yes, I yell HEY BEAR when I get in thick brush. a LOT. And yes, my buddies and I do it hunting, as long as we're not tracking something. Especially if I'm grouse or rabbit hunting - they could care less about noise, but the area by Paxon where I go has a number of bears so I'm fine with being noisy. But we always see our moose and caribou way before they can hear us. And we do just fine. But if we're tracking or stalking something, then you are right...we are silent. But was also hunt in an area that Griz are trained to come TO a gun shot, like a dinner bell. And after the kill, we make a ton of noise once again. And from all the bear we have seen (at least 1 a season), we have yet to shoot one. Funny thing is, you hear more about hikers doing kills, or at least run-ins with a bear, than you do hunters. Case in point, the biker that was chased on Rovers Run last week. Hunters usually do get mauled, for the reason of this discussion, being silent... but it happens less than the hikers shooting IMO. Or maybe it's just more publicized? or that hunting season is short, and people are out hiking all year long.

 

Either way, if he was hiking that trail and being silent in his walk... I will continue to think of him as an idiot. MY opinion. I know that trail, it is NOT open ground, and anyone walking quietly is taking their chances in doing so. I know I make a lot of noise when I'm on it. I was in the same area when the two runners were killed in '95 at McHugh creek, and it left a lasting impression. I was not as noisy of a walker then, but I am now.

[netpackrat 566]

 

Well, I never said yell HEY BEAR for miles. I said get their attention before you see each other. Hell, I hike for miles, open country and brush, and I whistle regardless. I talk to myself (and sometimes answer). And yes, I yell HEY BEAR when I get in thick brush. a LOT. And yes, my buddies and I do it hunting, as long as we're not tracking something. Especially if I'm grouse or rabbit hunting - they could care less about noise, but the area by Paxon where I go has a number of bears so I'm fine with being noisy.

 

You said he should have been yelling it before he saw the bear. Unless he's psychic, that implies he should be yelling it the whole time he's hiking. Either way, I will make noise when and where it makes sense to make noise on the trail, and in the more open areas I won't generally bother. I think we're mostly in agreement, but it's kind of pointless to judge this guy when neither of us was there to see what actually happened. Besides, between the adrenalin dump, and the one in his shorts, it's entirely possible that the newspaper didn't get the complete or totally correct story anyway.

[HighPlainsDrifter 466]

Interesting blog from a fellow Alaskan on the subject of bear and moose encounters taken from his webpage.

 

 

The Best Bear Protection

by livingatlatitude38and61

 

In the past week, I have encountered six moose and a bear on my runs and hikes. While these encounters resulted in delays of up to 15 minutes, all of them ended with no one getting hurt – unlike newsworthy stories from earlier this summer in which a man shot a cow moose in Denali National Park as it charged him and his family or the soldier hiking near the Rainbow/Turnagain trailhead who shot a bear with his AK-74 or recent encounters people have had with bears near the Hillside Nordic ski trails.

 

So what’s the most important thing to take with you when you go out in the wilderness (which in Alaska, basically starts at the end of your street)? A gun? Bear spray? A big stick?

None of the above. The most important thing to take is this.

 

 

Your head…and hopefully the brain contained within.

 

I never hike or trail run with a gun. If all you take is a gun, then a gun is what you will use and almost always, firing a weapon is an overreaction on your part. If I know bears have been frequenting areas that I still intend to travel in, I’ll take bear spray. Most of the time, I just adjust my travels to stay out of prime bear terrain such as hiking and running at higher elevations when I know the bears are down fishing the streams of Campbell Creek. When I go out, I still take an ice axe or buck knife just in case (I like to keep my encounters up close and personal). But here’s the deal:

 

If you are so afraid of taking yourself or your family into the wilderness that you feel you have to take a gun, then you have no business being out in the wilderness. Stay home. Go to the park or the zoo. You don’t belong “out there”.

I likely own more firearms than you (probably two or three times as many) so you can dispense with the greenie, liberal epithets. Alaska law allows the use of firearms against wildlife while protecting life or property. The law is applied fairly loosely because unless a trooper or officer is there to witness the event, they have to take the bonehead shooter at their word.

 

I have serious doubts about the “hiker” who shot the brown bear with his AK-74. First of all, no legitimate hikers carry that kind of a gun. A large caliber pistol (.40, .44 or larger) is the right firearm to bring. This fellow sounds like he was heading out on the trail looking for something to shoot. He would have had ample opportunity to retreat and he didn’t. Someone with experience and a working brain would know to make noise while you’re on the trail, recognize vegetation that is bear habitat and how to discourage a curious bear. If all you’ve brought with you is a gun and you’ve left your brain at home, you are going to overreact.

 

As for the guy who shot the cow moose in Denali, I’m sure the moose gave them a charge – especially if she had a calf. That’s what they do. I’ve been charged several times. My response has been to move out of the way. Jumping behind a tree (not a bush, but a tree) is a great option because 1) you have an obstacle that you can keep between you and the moose simply by taking a step or two in either direction and 2) the moose will see you as less of a threat. Shooting the moose was an overreaction by someone with little wilderness experience.

 

I’ve been around enough moose to know right away if the moose sees me as a threat or could care less if I walked by within 30 feet. The bull moose, cooing cow (the rut has apparently started) and calf that I encountered on my run late Tuesday night weren’t going to let me pass easily. They weren’t agitated and ready to charge given my current distance but they weren’t about to cede the trail to me and the brush was too thick on either side for me to detour. I made as much noise as possible to let them know where I was, all the while making sure I had a spruce tree nearby to jump behind if the situation suddenly turned. In the end, I had to wait 12 minutes as twilight continued to fade before they finally walked uphill enough for me to run on by. A few hundred feet down the trail, I came across two more cows and a calf but only had to wait about 5 minutes before they walked off the trail.

 

This is a slightly different scenario than some mushers I know who were running their dogs two winters ago in a very heavy snow year. The dog sled and snowmobile trails had become three to four-feet deep chutes and if you did happen to climb out of the trail chutes, the snow was even deeper where it hadn’t been packed down. Moose were congregating on the trails just to get to higher “ground”. I heard multiple stories of moose on the trails to the point where the mushers were sending a snowmobile ahead of the dog to teams to clear the trail with the sled dogs following a few hundred feet behind. A chance encounter with a moose being unexpectedly chased/driven by a different snowmobile down a side trail after the trail-clearing snowmobile had already passed on the main trail quickly led to a moose entangled with a dog team, kicking and stomping. Warning shots did no good and the moose had to be killed to save the dogs. The gun was not the first choice in this scenario. Using a snowmobile to clear the trail was. That was an unusual winter though. The moose were highly agitated from a scarcity of food and months of wading through deep snow.

 

Saturday, I was hiking up to Point Hope on the Kenai Peninsula. There are plenty of bears around. Salmon are running up the streams and berries are getting ripe. I made noise while hiking up through the forest and brush and was not surprised when I saw a black bear just above tree line dining on crowberries. I took a few photos first and then called out to the bear to let it know I was around. It seemed to have trouble spotting exactly where I was, so I waved my shirt around and then it scampered off uphill out of sight.

 

Unfortunately, the bear scampered right along the trail I was following up to the peak. As I got closer to the location where the bear was last seen, I started making noise and checked frequently over the other side of the ridge to make sure it wasn’t just a few feet out of site. I was armed with my ice axe, my buck knife and my wits. After a bit, I heard the bear crashing through the brush several hundred feet down the slope from where I stood on the ridge.

 

It’s important to keep an eye out for tracks and scat when you hike and run. Stop to see how fresh they are. More than once, I’ve seen fresh scat on my return that wasn’t on the trail when I passed by that spot on my run out. I also can’t advise running while listening to music on headphones. You need to stay totally aware of your surroundings.

 

Bear bells are okay. Talking is better. I’ve heard people’s voices long before I ever heard their bells or pots and pans banging on their backpacks.

 

The other thing I advise taking with you to avoid moose and bear is a dog – a smart dog who responds to voice commands (unlike my roommates sub-dog who goes into freak-out mode when she encounters other, bigger animals in our neighborhood.

 

Every bear and moose encounter I had while hiking and running with my old dog Taiya gave the wild animal reason to pause and size up two threats (a human and a dog) rather than just one threat to contend with. Taiya was also great at catching scent on animals to the degree that she would react differently when she smelled a moose than when she smelled a bear. Several times, she stopped and pointed to which I stopped, yelled out and then saw a bear stick its head above the brush, take one look at us and high-tail it out of there.

 

A fellow I know who works at fish monitoring stations along the Copper River tells me that a dog is the only thing that keeps them from having to shoot bears while working in the dense willows and alders along the shore. The brown bears there are numerous. In late spring, the bears have come out of their den, but the vegetation hasn’t greened up and the salmon don’t start running for several weeks. These brownies are looking for any kind of food. Yelling, bear spray and warning shots (they carry shotguns loaded with bear shot) are no deterrent to these starving animals. The only thing that drives them off is a well-trained dog that will charge the bear and retreat back to the people on voice command.

 

If these folks chose to shoot every problem bear, they would spend so much time skinning the bear and removing the skull (required by law when you kill a bear in self defense) that they wouldn’t have enough time to do their regular job. One year, a bear stuck its nose in the mess tent and the dog ran it off.

 

So before you go out, remember that this is the bear’s land and the moose’s land. You are entering their realm. Give yourself options. Don’t overreact. Look for a place to retreat (never run from a bear – step backwards slowly). Bring your wits with you and take a dog if you have one. Cameras are beneficial too when you want people to believe your stories.

 

Otherwise, stay in town. Take your family to the park or the zoo. It will work out better for everyone involved.

Edited August 19, 2013 by HighPlainsDrifter

[SHOTGUN MESIAH 855]

wouldn't a gun be a good thing to make noise with? Pop off a shot every mile or so.

Edited August 19, 2013 by SHOTGUN MESIAH

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

All well and good till you meet the wrong the bear.

[ShadowFire 220]

Lucky bastard. Yeah I'd want my .45-70 and my tracker .44 magnum with me. I'd be too busy at that point to take a dump in my underwear. Screaming "Die!" and trying to bring enough accurate rain for the bear to either die or get the point. lol

[pbwe 45]

wouldn't a gun be a good thing to make noise with? Pop off a shot every mile or so.

 

~30 yeas ago, I spent summers hiking in Glacier Natl. Park and Waterton. There were still grizzly there at the time. I made "clappers" out of 8" long 2x4. Eventually put on hand straps and neoprene padding (after a time, hands would go numb otherwise). These were light, easy to hang, made a nice loud clap' and were easy to use frequently. On occasion I did hear crunching through the brush, but never encountered any bear up close.

[HighPlainsDrifter 466]

Who needs a Saiga when in Russia you can use your Lada Granta...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0qvrhXFwKY

 

 

[netpackrat 566]

Guy on the blog is a jackass. He says that you should give yourself options, but then he says to leave at home the one option that can save your ass when all else fails. Looks like he's not even Alaskan, just some schmuck from Colorado. Yet another true summer-dough. We had another guy from outside who came up here and made a big deal out of saying that you shouldn't carry a gun, that what you really need to do is learn to live with the bears, and you won't need one. His name was Timothy Treadwell.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Netpackrat

[Ronin38 2,117]

In Russia, Bear hits Car!

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Yeah I watched old Timmy "Bear chow" Treadwell's documentary years ago as it reached it's inevitable results.

 

Just like most people by far are no threat but we still carry because people like bears have a bad strain out there.

[SHOTGUN MESIAH 855]

I like how the guy says when he feels threatened he will grab his ice pick hammer and buck knife.

I would like to see the end results on that one.

[gunfun 3,931]

 

wouldn't a gun be a good thing to make noise with? Pop off a shot every mile or so.

 

~30 yeas ago, I spent summers hiking in Glacier Natl. Park and Waterton. There were still grizzly there at the time. I made "clappers" out of 8" long 2x4. Eventually put on hand straps and neoprene padding (after a time, hands would go numb otherwise). These were light, easy to hang, made a nice loud clap' and were easy to use frequently. On occasion I did hear crunching through the brush, but never encountered any bear up close.

 

UAF did a study a few years back and found that in semi habituated areas, bear bells, clappers and the like had essentially no effect on bear behavior. They might prevent you from surprising a bear, but bears don't only attack when surprised. Sometimes they are hungry, cranky, territorial, or bored. Those all can get you killed even if the bear knows you are there. Maybe especially.

 

That article above lost me pretty quickly. The offensive part to me is idiots who make the following points: we are just an animal too and have no more rights than "other animals". 2: The animals were there first and we don't belong in nature. -Conflicts?

 

B.S. I will go where I choose to go. About the only place where I deserve an animal attack is if I knowingly crawl into the bear's den with its cubs or jump the fence into the lion cage at the zoo. Every where else, I have a legitimate right to go and to protect myself from anyone or anything that attacks me. (So this Saturday, I'll take a hike to the inner ring of the Hanford Rez...)