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223 optics question


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Hey,

 

I haven't Posted in awhile but I have a new concept build.

 

I cannot say exactly all I'm doing ATM. Its legal, but a rather unique build.

 

I want to make it a primary rifle, the trouble is I also want to be able to Id something at a distance. I've figured I could get a 1-4x scope, but mounting is the problem. I wanted this to be a "no batteries" build, but I doubt I could get around that.

 

(I'm rattling things off my head, sorry if my thoughts are a tad confusing)

 

I've looked at all manner of optics mounting on the Ak platform. I don't always need the optics on, because I want to keep irons for regular ranges.

 

That's another problem. See, I was gonna go with a Krebs rear peep, but then I could get a stable rear picatinny with the tws dogleg.. if I did that I could extend the distance between front and rear sights, and put on the tws peep.

 

That was my idea for irons... for optics, i thought either two flip to side rings and a 1-4x, or a side rail mount, low profile, that would allow an ace sidefolder to clear.

 

These are my ideas and im trying to see what would work best. I want a light rifle with optics to come out of this. But if you think that might be asking too much, lemme know. Oh, i also though of a scope on the dogleg with a qd mount.

 

Im tempted to drop the optics idea altogether.

 

Just need a little groupthink.

 

:)

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Great ideas! +1 for the TWS dogleg, it is a great mounting solution. I also took off the SVD side rail to shed a few more ounces. I am trying to be as light as possible and was thinking about a primary arms red dot, it is also my economy build. I really like the idea of flip to side scope mounts, I thought those were only on the Eotech's, very cool.

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Great ideas! +1 for the TWS dogleg, it is a great mounting solution. I also took off the SVD side rail to shed a few more ounces. I am trying to be as light as possible and was thinking about a primary arms red dot, it is also my economy build. I really like the idea of flip to side scope mounts, I thought those were only on the Eotech's, very cool.

 

 

thank you for the encouragement!

 

there are a couple companies that make flip to side magnifiers [basically copying the eotech idea] but then there is also at least one company that will sell the mounting rings without a magnifier. I have yet to see someone use two and mount a scope.

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I left the iron sights intact , in case I need to use them . I also wanted some optics but something of a compact take off package , so I went with the K-VAR-04S mount from K-var , low 30mm rings and the Leatherwoods CMR 1-4X24 lighted CQB scope .

If I want to use the iron sights , I just take off the mount/scope with one flip of the lever and I am done . That I want the optics back ? just slide the mount back in , flip the lever and I am in busines

As a note , the K-VAr mount was designed specifically for the Saiga rifles , so it fit like a globe ... check it out .

Edited by josey88
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TWS Dogleg and ACE side folder are going to weigh as much as just putting a side-rail mount on.

 

If you use the TWS Dogleg, and want removable optics, you're looking at mounting the optics on QD rail mounts. More weight.

 

IMO.. Use the side-rail to mount a scope and configure the ACE folder to fold to the right. so that the optic mount doesn't interfere when installed. The Kalinka BP-02 low-profile mount will get the rail basically right on top of the dust cover and near centerline.

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I am with Josey88 and mancat. Side mount is your QD scope mounting system, and by far more sturdy than flip-outs (most of which are designed for lightweight magnifiers, and not for bulky zoom scopes). Sure you could fabricate dual-ring platform, but that will defeat the entire purpose of pursuing the light rifle build.

 

I used Ace folder with Magpul MOE stock, closing to the left with VOMZ and Primary Arms 1-4x zoom attached. Not purely parallel to receiver, but suitable for transportation and quick draw and use. It's doable, if this is what you want.

 

On battery-free optics, look at Nikon .223 line of scopes: very clear optics and high light transmission. But does the weight difference between the powered and non-powered optics really matter? At the extra weight, equivalent to few coins, wouldn't you rather have clear and fast acquisition type scope, suitable for dask/dawn ops and dark areas use?

 

(Before I removed a spacer and dropped the scope down):

post-28515-0-65980500-1328968462_thumb.j

 

post-28515-0-47751600-1337163565_thumb.j

 

On a side note: if installed closing to the left, ACE hinge is on the way of scope removal.

I had to remove the hardstop at the mount's dovetail section and make the mount removable from the front.

However, hardstop is there for a reason, and I wouldn't do it for heavier recoil calibers, but it works well on this setup.

 

Or you can install ACE folder with closing it to the right, like mancat suggested.

Overall, think "sturdy". Many lightweight accessories and adopted alternatives are flimsy, and (IMO) don't worth the trade off.

 

HTH. Keep us posted.

Good luck,

Happy Shooting!

Edited by Sgt. Raven
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This is what I am talking about ... but unfortunately , once you start adding things to the gun , it becomes heavier , as I have experienced with mine .

These things add weight ... it is a trade off .

On the other side, you can customize your rifle the way you want . I have the DPH stock/ ACE folder to the right so the access to the scope/side mount is free of interference .

I can take off the scope/mount just with pulling back the mount`s lever and then , eliminating a lot of weight if I don`t need it , and that is a big plus . The ability of putting the optics back again fast and keeping perfect zero is way better than a fixed system where you have to deal with the weight all the time ... Same with the bipod , just push the button and it is out . I prefer to use a bipod at the bench , instead of the sand bags at the range .

It is all about flexibility . If you need to carry this thing , it is better to be lighter than heavier . My Saiga is already heavier because of the longer, heavier and thicker barrel and if I were to carry it with all the extras , it would wear me down , so taking down optics and bipod gets off a huge weight , IMO

001_zps7f928587.jpg

003_zps90b7c925.jpg011_zps353e2d56.jpg006_zps353da7e9.jpg

Edited by josey88
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http://www.samson-mfg.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/AK-47_scope_mount-s.jpg

 

Samson RSR1. All steel. USA made. Extremely solid (no set screws to fiddle with, uses pivot holes and a dog leg at the rear). Replaces your sight leaf/spring. Has a "back up" iron sight channel in it to retain use of your irons.

 

Do you have one? I don't see how they can avoid having some play without a set screw or two somewhere if it mounts to thesight leaf assembly. Also, it sits rather high even with that tiny dot on there.

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http://www.samson-mfg.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/AK-47_scope_mount-s.jpg

 

Samson RSR1. All steel. USA made. Extremely solid (no set screws to fiddle with, uses pivot holes and a dog leg at the rear). Replaces your sight leaf/spring. Has a "back up" iron sight channel in it to retain use of your irons.

Do you have one? I don't see how they can avoid having some play without a set screw or two somewhere if it mounts to thesight leaf assembly. Also, it sits rather high even with that tiny dot on there.

 

I do have one. I just installed it yesterday. It is quite an ingenious mount. You take the original sight leaf and spring out, and drop the RSR1 into it's place. Then you tighten a rear screw (faces buttstock) which tightens a "dog leg" hook which hooks under the front edge of the top/rear trunion. Then a side screw goes into where the pivot point used to be. The RSR1 has it's entire front hole threaded, so when you tighten that side screw, it squeezes the RSR1 against one inner side of the sight block. It's ROCK solid, and does not rely on any leverage/set screws as others do.

I like this mount WAY better than an Altimak (they are good too, though), as the optics stay cooler, you can keep your original furniture, it's WAY lighter, simpler, does not change gas tube removal, and also functions as a back up iron.

One issue with the RSR1 though, Saiga trunions/rear sight block are not "squared off" at the edge, under the leaf pivot (as others are). It's a beveled/angle edge. The RSR1 side mount screw does not fit flush against the side due to this. One can either dremel that spot smooth, or let it stick out a litte (as I did), since the tension is between the RSR1 and INNER part of sight block anyway.

Edited by Brian M1
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Here's some pics to illustrate the RSR1 I used:

8-4-13020_zpsf23b4a89.jpg

 

Here you can see the groove for use as a back up "iron" (and it works well):

8-4-13021_zps0de7baf1.jpg

 

Here you'll notice I use the front bolt in the opposite side that Samson recommends. This is because if you use the other side, it will block the gas tube lever. The whole insert is threaded, so you can use either side. I suggest using the NON lever side (as I did):

8-4-13019_zpsf770b479.jpg

 

And in this picture you can see the rear bolt (there are only 2, one through bolt in the front, and the tightening one in the back/rear). When this bolt (silver round under rail) is tightened, it pulls back on a "dog leg" which fits in a groove. This dog leg goes UNDER the rearmost part of the sight block. Thus making it rock solid between the front bolt and rear dogleg. No set screws:

8-4-13022_zps86c7e70d.jpg

 

These things aren't cheap, though. They usually retail for about $130, but I got mine from Midway for $98. They still had 2 left on clearance. I have zero concern about loosing the "adjustability" of the slider rear sight, as a 223/5.56 has a very flat trajectory that remains so from about 50-225yrd, making the slider kind of joke on these rifles.

Edited by Brian M1
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