Legal definition of a "shoulder-stock"..

[Sim_Player 1,939]

Could a solid brace (connected to an attatched sling) be considered a stock by the BATF?

 

The solid brace could be slung into position to brace the pistol.

 

Am I making sense?

Edited August 3, 2013 by Sim_Player

[Big John! 2,062]

While this in no way answers your question... Either nut up and SBR, or use the pistol as intended. For me it close quarters fuck em up, mag capacity, and hideability. I just don't get the appeal of trying to find ways to skirt the law on this subject. I guarantee, we'll see a vid of some yee haw fuck that thinks he knows the laws busting some guy for having an SBR. Being right does not keep your gun from being taken.

[schultze13 354]

This ^^^^^^^^^^^ BUT if you live in a state that does not allow SBR's then this is what I think you are talking about.

But I prefer this method more

Edited August 3, 2013 by SCHULTZE

[Sim_Player 1,939]

No SBRS allowed in WA State.

 

I've got a Bulgy Kit and i'm debating the pros and cons of a short barrel.

 

I already have a 5.45 and 7.62 16.5" AK.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Sim_Player

[gunfun 3,931]

I'll give it a go using plain language construction:

 

Shoulder: noun. The portion of a roadway outside the lanes of travel which may support a vehicle, immediately adjacent to the ditch. May be legal for passing in some jurisdictions, and not in others.

 

Stock:noun: 1. A share or shares representing ownership in a corporation, or entitling the owner to future profits if any. (see securities) .2. The paper certificate proving ownership of 1. 3. A collective term referring to inventory on hand. 4. Cattle owned by a ranch.

 

So a shoulder stock is likely refering to any cattle found beside the road. So far I have found that these are swollen and taste rancid. I hope this helps.

[XD45 7,124]

Evidently this question has been answered with the SB47 (the AK version of the brace shown above). Since the ATF has already ruled on this particular item, I suggest using it.

[gunfun 3,931]

Like when they ruled the Akins Accelerator was good to go?

[Sdustin 578]

This sb15 looks borderline illegal.

[Lone Eagle 839]

Cousin is a member on barfcom, and he said a couple of members tried it. Once strapped on, you can't bend your elbow to properly line up the sights two handed. No one's been brave enough to shoulder it for fear the BATFE would bust down their front doors based on a picture.

[Matthew Hopkins 1,065]

Like when they ruled the Akins Accelerator was good to go?

 

^

 

ATF tech branch is notorious for approving something, then changing their minds with another letter.

[pyzik 597]

I've been considering one since SBRs are illegal here in MI as well. Then, if I pistol a AR I can carry it in my car loaded, like I can with my folder .223.

Here's a look at it "shouldered"

 

 

 

 

 

 

Does anyone have an image of the ATF letter giving this item the thumbs up?

[Matthew Hopkins 1,065]

Does anyone have an image of the ATF letter giving this item the thumbs up?

 

 

they are given the thumbs up as the thing was designed, strapped to your forearm. now, if you're the paranoid type, and shoulder the thing, you'll be looking around in-between shoots to see if someone is taking a picture of you using that as it was never approved of and making a case that it's a illegal SBR

 

http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/ATF-Compliant-Letter.pdf

Edited August 7, 2013 by Matthew Hopkins

[pyzik 597]

Thanks. I know it's "as intended", and I would be a TAD paranoid...

 

I couldn't find the letter. Just wanted to read it's wording.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

"Intended to be fired from the shoulder"

It isn't.

That it's possible to do so doesn't change that.

An AR pistol buffer tube can be jammed against the shoulder, too - but it isn't meant to be. It doesn't mean doing so is illegal. To the best of my knowledge, there is no doctrine of "constructive usage."

[mostholycerebus 415]

That thing REALLY looks like its designed to be fired from the shoulder. Its up to the ATF really. A letter will help, but ultimately the judge will decide your fate. After thousands in legal fees.

 

Cheaper to SBR, or if thats illegal in your state, get an AR15 pistol in 300BLK. 300BLK has x39 ballistics, better bullet selection, and the buffer tube is integral to its function. Some people put the longer tubes on to soften recoil impulse, tweak the action, or better balance the weight. ATF has ruled that if its tucked into your shoulder its not an SBR, because the tube is NOT designed as a stock, but as a functional part of the action.

Edited August 7, 2013 by mostholycerebus

[XD45 7,124]

I seriously doubt there is any personal risk to buying this "brace", aside from the possibility that the batfuckers may call for them to be turned in.

 

I'd buy one. But I wouldn't make my own "brace" since the approval (which I haven't seen but must exist if Sig is selling them) will only apply to the specific item, not anything similar to it.

[Matthew Hopkins 1,065]

since the approval (which I haven't seen but must exist if Sig is selling them)

 

 

I put the link on my post

[SaigaNoobie 66]

That thing REALLY looks like its designed to be fired from the shoulder. Its up to the ATF really. A letter will help, but ultimately the judge will decide your fate. After thousands in legal fees.

 

Cheaper to SBR, or if thats illegal in your state, get an AR15 pistol in 300BLK. 300BLK has x39 ballistics, better bullet selection, and the buffer tube is integral to its function. Some people put the longer tubes on to soften recoil impulse, tweak the action, or better balance the weight. ATF has ruled that if its tucked into your shoulder its not an SBR, because the tube is NOT designed as a stock, but as a functional part of the action.

 

300BLK Pistol. Vepr Down!

 

[XD45 7,124]

I've noticed sever videos on youtube of people firing these from the shoulder, as expected.

 

So either this is a paperless sbr or the hammer will fall.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

I've noticed sever videos on youtube of people firing these from the shoulder, as expected.

 

So either this is a paperless sbr or the hammer will fall.

Probably the latter, eventually - but maybe not. They're pretty poor as stocks, because they generally aren't intended to be fired from the shoulder. A buffer tube isn't meant to be shouldered either, but has the length required for it to be done.

[MT Predator 2,294]

Could a solid brace (connected to an attatched sling) be considered a stock by the BATF?

The solid brace could be slung into position to brace the pistol.

Am I making sense?

Are you talking about the type that is intended to be strapped to your forearm or is this sling attached brace supposed to be shouldered?

[mostholycerebus 415]

300BLK Pistol. Vepr Down!

 

That looks more like a "Firearm" than a pistol. Its only a pistol if under 26" OAL. Upside is, if its over 26", you can put a VFG on it.

[Sdustin 578]

Id call that "pistol" a stockless rifle.

[Sim_Player 1,939]

 

Could a solid brace (connected to an attatched sling) be considered a stock by the BATF?

The solid brace could be slung into position to brace the pistol.

Am I making sense?

Are you talking about the type that is intended to be strapped to your forearm or is this sling attached brace supposed to be shouldered?

I scee someone restarted my old thread.

 

My original question was, "could a shoulder-type brace (not permantly connected to the rifle) but maybe attatched to the sling) be considered a stock? It could be slung against the shoulder to brace the pistol but, not a part of the gun. . More like a portable brace.

 

No SBRs allowed here in WA State.

 

I would think that it would be legal.

 

I've been working toward a rifle-build.

 

(I would love to make my bulgy kit into a pistol but, I need a cheek-weld.

 

On the upside, a rifle-build would be cheaper. I already have the barrel. It would have to be cut and put on a lathe, or replaced at the same cost (no shop or garage). I could shorten the gastube myself and purchase a shorter gas piston).

 

Can you tell, I'm in no hurry? I'm enjoying the process and I'm doing it with minimal tools.

 

This will probably be my one and only build. I'm very late to the party so it's all about the journey now and not saving money.

 

Total cost of this rifle-build finished will be about $500 (same as each of my Saiga Conversions a year ago).

Edited October 10, 2013 by Sim_Player

[gunfun 3,931]

 

 

Could a solid brace (connected to an attatched sling) be considered a stock by the BATF?

The solid brace could be slung into position to brace the pistol.

Am I making sense?

Are you talking about the type that is intended to be strapped to your forearm or is this sling attached brace supposed to be shouldered?

I scee someone restarted my old thread.

 

My original question was, "could a shoulder-type brace (not permantly connected to the rifle) but maybe attatched to the sling) be considered a stock? It could be slung against the shoulder to brace the pistol but, not a part of the gun. . More like a portable brace.

 

 

 

 

Well, up until somewhere around the end of WWII, many pistols came with holsters which could clip on as a shoulder stock. [borchardt, Broomhandles, p08, Hi-power, a few 1911s, were the most common, but there are many others as a one-off] Those have to be grandfathered though. My understanding is that they are not treated as an NFA title II item if they are original, but a new one would be. I would think if your stock or brace had any kind of latch or connection which attached it to the gun even temporarily you would be making an illegal SBR. 

 

I would really love to have a modern version plastic of one of those stocks, and if WA ever allows SBRs, I think a pistol with a stock/holster that clamps onto the light rail, and a surpressor would be a great lightweight versatile wilderness survival rifle. My cousin has an FN 5-7 with a can, and this would just be brilliand with a light aluminum quick release L shaped stock that mounts this way. I've been thinking of it for a long time. One bit I have been wondering is this: Since a silencer counts as the firearm itself, and can be mounted on any other weapon, is the same true of a pistol stock? I know people get various brands of Glock stock for their G18 or clones. A light mount QD stock would be universal, so you could put the same stock on any pistol with a pic rail under the barrel, and only buy one stamp. -- in theory, but I don't know how this works at all.

[Sim_Player 1,939]

Thanks GunFun.

 

The "Sling Stock", would not contact the pistol until it was needed.

 

It's a BS compromise.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Sim_Player

[Sdustin 578]

GunFun have you seen the glock stocks. I've also thought about doing this. The pistol would need to be registered as a SBR and then you just buy the mako stock. What I would have is a small case with a glock 17 stock and a QD scope rail that attaches to the light rail a red dot and a folding vert grip all on the single QD mount, then get one of the side charging handles, the pistol alone would just have the handle on it. But the stock slides and clips in the "mainspring" area. At the back of the magazine well theres a hollow spot on glocks the stock just slides there and theres already a hole to lock the stock in.

 

These stocks are sold just like any gun part so its up to you to be legal. I also dont know how you would engrave the frame for the form 1?

[Shandlanos 1,470]

GunFun - a Glock with a buttstock is fun, but not really all that practical without a vertical foregrip. I had an opportunity to fire a Glock 19 in full auto (post-sample RDIAS, he also let me run it on a .40 S&W slide), and with the stock and no vfg, it was less controllable then with a vfg alone. With a stock and vfg, it was very easy to keep it under control. In semi-auto, the stock still really wasn't much help without a vfg. I like the folding Mako grip, and if I SBR one of my frames in the future, will be running a Mako collapsing stock and folding grip.

[gunfun 3,931]

GunFun - a Glock with a buttstock is fun, but not really all that practical without a vertical foregrip. I had an opportunity to fire a Glock 19 in full auto (post-sample RDIAS, he also let me run it on a .40 S&W slide), and with the stock and no vfg, it was less controllable then with a vfg alone. With a stock and vfg, it was very easy to keep it under control. In semi-auto, the stock still really wasn't much help without a vfg. I like the folding Mako grip, and if I SBR one of my frames in the future, will be running a Mako collapsing stock and folding grip.

 

I was not thinking so much about controlling full auto as providing a more stable and fast way to aim. besides the fact that I would enjoy shooting such a thing, it would be great for a bush pilot's kit or serious back packing. You could hike with the pistol in a drop leg or chest holster, and stow the stock in your pack. if you got into a situation where you need to forage, you can dig out the stock and mount it to make those valuable rounds count.

 

Further, when I picture this product, it would be a clamp that mounts to the pic rail intended for flashlights it would have a  bar of aluminum running rearward to the stock beside the slide on the right side. The clamp would have a lever release. Further, it would be tapped so that you could keep a rail under the quick release, including a slightly extended rail. The way I would set it up would be to leave a light vertical handle and a green pistol laser mouned to the stock's rail. When you clamp it onto the pistol, it should keep zero. You could also put a Red dot mount onto the same thing by having a channel that goes up and over the slide. (using those same tapped holes.) I think the thing could be made sufficiently rigid at around 1.5- 2 lbs. My notion of the QD clamp would use all of the light rail or even overhang a little on the front just to spread out all the force as much as possible.

 

The stock is not so much intendet to transfer recoil into your shoulder, as it is to stabilize aiming and give a cheekweld for rapid sight alignment. IMO, most pistols could be shot effectively up to about 150 yards with good enough sights and a steady hold. This helps with the hold, and could be a mounting point for the sights. There might be too much flex for a scope to do well though.

An alternate version could have a pair of paralell graphite or CF tubes. The top tube would run beside the slide as described above. the lower tube would be paralell to the top one and would be roughly flush with the bottom of the grip. This would run to the bottom of an integral foregrip and would be significantly more rigid. It might also be possible to make this version lighter.