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Saiga .308 vs. Mosin Nagant


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I had a chance to take these two to the range. The S.308 has 1.5 - 4.5x optic. I was using Barnaul .308 steel case. The Mosin Nagant has 3-9x optic. All shots were made at 4x. I was using Bulgarian surplus x54. Range was 100 yards.

 

I have targets with barrel hot and cold for each.

 

Cold the S.308 average shot spread for 5 shots was 1.2 MOA with the largest spread being 2.0 MOA.

 

The MN was about the same with an average shot spread of 1.2 MOA with the largest spread being 2 MOA. The S.308 shot slightly tighter with 5 shots basically in 3 holes.

 

Hot the S.308 opened up with an average spread of 2.4 MOA with the largest spread being 5.5 MOA.

 

The MN opened up a little less when hot with average spread of 1.7 MOA with the largest spread being 3.25 MOA.

 

gallery_33171_687_399197.jpg

Saiga Cold 5 shot group @100 yards

gallery_33171_687_430804.jpg

 

MN cold 5 shot group at 100 yards

gallery_33171_687_328741.jpg

 

Saiga hot 5 shot group at 100 yards

gallery_33171_687_564563.jpg

 

MN hot 5 shot group at 100 yards

gallery_33171_687_408720.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

Yeah the Galil .308s I hear have the two locking lugs. I know they used a small number of Galil .308s for DM rifles, the Galil Galatz. Good luck getting a hold of one, they are NOT cheap. My IDF friends tell me however that the M14 is still a little more accurate than the Galatz but either one does the job.

Edited by ShadowFire
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Wait a minute...

 

1.2 MOA from a S308 with steel ammo?

The same from a Mosin with mil-surp ammo?

 

I want to know where you buy your rifles.

 

lol Only part of it is the rifle, the rest is the shooter. Lots of stuff to learn in the quest for accuracy.

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Wait a minute...

 

1.2 MOA from a S308 with steel ammo?

The same from a Mosin with mil-surp ammo?

 

I want to know where you buy your rifles.

 

lol Only part of it is the rifle, the rest is the shooter. Lots of stuff to learn in the quest for accuracy.

 

 

Yeah right, from a lead sled the best either can do with that ammo on average is 3MOA pushing 4.

 

That takes the shooter out of it.

 

Either can with developed hand loads shoot that well, but come on.

 

What you are saying is these two rifles shoot better than many modern bolt action rifles with high end commercial brass ammo.

 

Again I want to know where to get me some of those.

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Wait a minute...

 

1.2 MOA from a S308 with steel ammo?

The same from a Mosin with mil-surp ammo?

 

I want to know where you buy your rifles.

 

lol Only part of it is the rifle, the rest is the shooter. Lots of stuff to learn in the quest for accuracy.

 

 

Yeah right, from a lead sled the best either can do with that ammo on average is 3MOA pushing 4.

 

That takes the shooter out of it.

 

Either can with developed hand loads shoot that well, but come on.

 

What you are saying is these two rifles shoot better than many modern bolt action rifles with high end commercial brass ammo.

 

Again I want to know where to get me some of those.

 

The groups pictured aren't extra-ordinary. My S.308 groups are consistent with other posts in this forum. And the 91/30 is consistent with other similar scoped and accurized Mosin results all over the web.

 

IMHO, a modern bolt action rifle with high end commercial brass ammo that isn't grouping sub 1MOA is a POS.

Edited by Jaba1017
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Wait a minute...

 

1.2 MOA from a S308 with steel ammo?

The same from a Mosin with mil-surp ammo?

 

I want to know where you buy your rifles.

 

lol Only part of it is the rifle, the rest is the shooter. Lots of stuff to learn in the quest for accuracy.

 

 

Yeah right, from a lead sled the best either can do with that ammo on average is 3MOA pushing 4.

 

That takes the shooter out of it.

 

Either can with developed hand loads shoot that well, but come on.

 

What you are saying is these two rifles shoot better than many modern bolt action rifles with high end commercial brass ammo.

 

Again I want to know where to get me some of those.

 

 

The shooter still has to have the idea to use the sled and still has to pull the trigger while it's on the sled. Use proper trigger control for one group then magnum-flinch another group and see if there is a difference. ;)

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yup, thats why most rifles even with an accuracy guarantee wont group well for some people, and thats why so many rifles get returned with " this one is a lemon" tag. Yet for some people, even a saiga 308 or vepr 308 group well and shoot well, granted there is some variance rifle to rifle but for the most part, its usually the shooter.

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  • 3 weeks later...

 

 

 

 

 

Wait a minute...

 

1.2 MOA from a S308 with steel ammo? 

The same from a Mosin with mil-surp ammo?

 

I want to know where you buy your rifles.

 

lol  Only part of it is the rifle, the rest is the shooter.  Lots of stuff to learn in the quest for accuracy.

 

 

Yeah right, from a lead sled the best either can do with that ammo on average is 3MOA pushing 4.

 

That takes the shooter out of it.

 

Either can with developed hand loads shoot that well, but come on.

 

What you are saying is these two rifles shoot better than many modern bolt action rifles with high end commercial brass ammo.

 

Again I want to know where to get me some of those.

 

 

The shooter still has to have the idea to use the sled and still has to pull the trigger while it's on the sled.  Use proper trigger control for one group then magnum-flinch another group and see if there is a difference.  wink.png

 

 

Well I could hit it with brick too but that wouldn't change much. nothing.gif

 

There was a thread a few years back where a very respectable poster vented about the claims some folks were making back then, and the problems these caused to the inexperienced who come to expect sub 2MOA from an AK design with steel ammo. He was right.

 

It just aint real to expect this. If you do get it then you have a one in a thousand Saiga, NEVER SELL IT!

 

Sure hand loads, good bullet selection and a bit of work  the rifles can deliver good results but please.

Edited by Rhodes1968
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Ive noticed with my sgl and the s-308 that shot groups open up considerably as the barrel heats up. Ive also noticed that the first round hand racked seems to have a little bit of difference in point of impact from auto loaded rounds (why, i have no clue). So if im shooting for groups or sighting in a scope, i always let the barrel return to normal temp and load one round in the mag at a time. My idea behind it is, is that the first shot is going to be the one to count the most especially in a hunting application, much less any other real life application. I think methodology has alot to do with results people get from ak platforms.

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The "first round flyer" has been pointed out by a lot of folks over the years.

 

I notice it when shooting the S308(or any AK design) but its not consistent sometimes the flyer is there sometimes not. Conventional wisdom suggests it has to do with the force that round is chambered being reduced on hand cycling. I have tried various methods of loading the first round and settled on the tried and true pull back all the way and let fly.

It makes some sense as what else could be the cause?

Remember Russian steel ammo varies a bit.

 

What I do is burn that first round on another target then use the following rounds for the grouping either three or five shots at a rifleman's cadence of @3 seconds per shot. The first and second groups are the tightest but we all know what a hot barrel will do in particular on the 21" after about 20 paced rounds. 

 

Its an MBR with a large heavy bolt and piston designed and built with large tolerances for reliability over excess accuracy, this seems a fair trial of the rifle. Even in a vice it wont "out shoot" a boltie unless of course firepower counts.

 

If a guy is getting 3-5MOA from steel ammo, which is not made to the same strict standards of commercial American brass or even NATO mil-surp, I would tell him its doing its job.

 

So it would suggest all other things being equal the ammo has more to do with people getting various results than anything else, exceptional rifles (luck) excluded. 

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Ammo makes a HUUGE difference.   I can shoot 1.5moa and make flower patterns when I use brass case american ammo.   When I start throwing in cheap Monarch steel cased, the groups open up to about 4moa.   Granted they're all on the target.  Just all over the place lol.   Good trigger control, sight alignment and ammo will produce pretty decent results from a semi auto.  Even an AK.   That said, my bolt action 30-06 will tack drive everytime and make the S308 look stoopid.

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